PCN - NCP Rail Station - Appeal rejected

hoth0416

Hi all

My (non-savvy) father had a PCN and is at POPLA appeal stage. I only found out today and came straight here to see what the best way forward is.

Background:

- NCP rail car park
- Windscreen ticket received
- Lease car

What happened: Parked and ran for the train. Tried to pay via app and it failed. Called automated system which said payment went through - no further action taken. It turns out it didn't.

He did take some screenshots to show app failing, the call to automated system and email exchange with app provider.

First appeal:

[APOLOGIES - this appeal was made without looking at the sticky and largely goes against most of the recommendations.....!]

- As soon as my father got the PCN - he started drafting his appeal.
- Appeal based on attempt to pay
- Name and address provided
- Appeal sent on Day 12

Appeal was rejected on Day 14 on the basis driver should ensure parking is paid for before leaving car park. POPLA number provided.


Current situation

It's day 14 and now I have been made aware of this.

The first thing I have done is emailed the lease company to ensure no payment is made in respect of any invoices sent (appreciate that now they have my dad's details it may not go to them) - but better to be safe.

Next steps

So I've looked at the sticky and the POPLA appeal seems to suggest that the appeal should be based on a 'no-names' approach. As we've violated that my first question is:

Q1) Do I still have a chance? Or should I call it a day and pay up?

Appreciate that this is never the mantra on this forum but not sure if we've shot ourselves in the foot too much by this point.

If we do still fight on.... question 2 is:

Q2) Do I still take the standard appeal template as on the sticky?

As the original appeal did not mention anything from the standard original appeal template, can the POPLA appeal change direction on what we are appealing on?

And the final question is:

Q3) I've contacted the lease company - any other actions I need to take?

I'll wait to hear back on the first three questions and go from there. Will of course share any drafts / actions going forward.

Thanks

Coupon-mad

Q1) Do I still have a chance? Or should I call it a day and pay up?

Your Dad has a chance, and perhaps he didn't tick 'driver' as the choice in NCP's drop-down menu? Arrgh, I bet he did.

If we do still fight on.... question 2 is:

Q2) Do I still take the standard appeal template as on the sticky?

No, you use the POPLA templates from the 3rd post of the sticky.

As the original appeal did not mention anything from the standard original appeal template, can the POPLA appeal change direction on what we are appealing on?

Always!

Google to see extreme examples to cheer you and Dad up:
Parking Prankster Elvis
Parking Prankster radioactive spider
Parking Prankster Zombie apocalypse

And the final question is:

Q3) I've contacted the lease company - any other actions I need to take?

Complain to the landowner and/or Transport Focus and/or Dad could contact the app company and see why it wrongly told him payment had gone through.

hoth0416

Thanks for the quick (and very helpful!) reply!

Coupon-mad wrote: »

Your Dad has a chance, and perhaps he didn't tick 'driver' as the choice in NCP's drop-down menu? Arrgh, I bet he did..

When you say has a chance - would you put a % on that? Just so we can weigh up taking the discounted fine (£50) as opposed to chancing it and possibly losing and forking an extra £35.

Hmm for the form there was no choice like that - this was the form: hxxps://i.imgur.com/oFMUD9K.png

Coupon-mad wrote: »

No, you use the POPLA templates from the 3rd post of the sticky.

Perfect - That's what i meant. I will draft something up and post it here.

Coupon-mad wrote: »

Always!

Ok that's good to know we haven't totally shot ourselves in the foot!

Coupon-mad wrote: »

Google to see extreme examples to cheer you and Dad up:

These look great!!! Have certainly cheered us up!!

Coupon-mad wrote: »

Complain to the landowner and/or Transport Focus and/or Dad could contact the app company and see why it wrongly told him payment had gone through.

Ok will do on landowner / TF. We did follow up with the app company and they were useless - "we can't see the payment as having gone through so there is nothing more we can do..."

----

As noted above I'll draft an appeal. Thanks so much again - really appreciated!

Redx

Was the driver revealed in the initial appeal?
Yes or no

hoth0416

Yes - implicitly (e.g. "I am writing to appeal against the parking charge notice issued to me", and, "I had parked at the station and...") - with the appeal signed off with his name. Additionally he had to enter his details on the form (hxxps://i.imgur.com/oFMUD9K.png)

I will draft an appeal over the next few days.

The_Deep

Nine times out of ten these tickets are scams so complain to your MP.

Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted

Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.

hoth0416

Hi all

I'm just coming to drafting my POPLA appeal. Taking a look at post 3 on the sticky thread, it appears the grounds you can use for the appeal are as below. I've added my thoughts on my scenario to each.

1) POFA missing

As the timing hasn't worked for this (i.e. the initial appeal was done too early and referred to the situation as "I parked my car"), my assumption is this wouldn't work.

2) Signage

I think this is a good point to raise. The car park entrance looks like this (from google street view): hxxps://i.imgur.com/52AMZNx.jpg

The bit circled in red is now covered by the weeds growing under it. Additionally, there are road works going on inside the car park.

3) Landowner authority

I think this is also a fair point.

4) No keeper liability

Shot ourselves in the foot here by messing up the timing / wording in the initial appeal so I assume we can't use this.

5) Permit car parks

Don't think this applies as it's not a permit car park.

---

Therefore - I assume we can only appeal based on points 3 and 4?

A few more questions before I draft something:

Q1) Have I missed any points to argue on?

Just want to check I've covered all points that can apply to my scenario.

Q2) Is my analysis above correct - i.e. I can only argue on points 3 and 4?

So I go to town on signage and landowner authority only?

Q3) Do I mention any points from my original appeal at all? (that I tried to pay via the app?)

Not sure whether it adds anything of value.

and finally:

Q4) Based on your experience, what are the chances I will lose the appeal?

If i'm punting on a 50/50 outcome, I would like to consider paying the discounted amount.


Thanks again for all of your help! I'll be sure to post my draft here.

Fruitcake

Your link made live.

https://i.imgur.com/52AMZNx.jpg

You can't use points 1, 4, and 5.

Points 2 and 3, plus frustration of contract are your best points.

The signs in your image are woefully inadequate as far as forming a contract with a driver are concerned. Get more pics of the site and signage if possible to further help with your case.

See if there is a restriction on how long afterwards payment for parking can be made. The idea of paying by app is meant so a rail passenger can catch a train without having to worry about problems with paying for parking that might cause them to miss said train.

Having proof that the pay by app was "successful" according to the automated system and/or subsequent emails will be useful for a frustration of contract point.
The driver attempted to pay, and was told it had been successful. If payment didn't actually go through then the motorist cannot be held responsible for any failures caused by their or their contracted out third party payment system.

Complain to your/your father's MP about this unregulated scam.

hoth0416

Sorry yes i meant points 2 and 3 (not 3 and 4 as my above post says!).

I will look to get more pictures of the site and signage and look at the restriction on time.

Agreed on the app convenience front - exactly why he used it!

And yes - will ensure the complaint goes to the MP.

Will report back in due course. Thank you all - the help and support is much appreciated.

Coupon-mad

The signs in your image are woefully inadequate as far as forming a contract with a driver are concerned. Get more pics of the site and signage if possible to further help with your case.

I agree. Get LOTS of pics of the car park with no signs in view, or a video.

hoth0416

Coupon-mad wrote: »

I agree. Get LOTS of pics of the car park with no signs in view, or a video.

Hi

I popped to the station to get pictures and videos

I'll be drafting my response over the next few days. If there is anything you see in the pictures/videos you think I should flag please let me know!

Or, if you think I need to get more pictures of something else at the station, please let me know.

Thanks again for all of your help!