Complicated defence - multiple companies

LaserBlue

I received a county court claim on 19 June 2019 and will file an AoS online tonight. I would appreciate some pointers please.

I think my defence is complicated because a number of different companies are involved as follows:

"Company A" is the company that rented out office space to my business, and runs the building reception.
"Company B" is the company that manages the overall estate, such as parking etc.
"Company C" has acquired "Company B" since I had contact about the parking dispute.

The background is:

1. In 2014 my company rented an office in a building that is managed by “Company A”.
2. In Feb 2015 I park in the loading bay for a few minutes with verbal permission from the receptionist (“Company A”) so that I can unload but I quickly get a ticket on the vehicle from a PPC who manages the estate
3. The space I used is marked “loading bay” on the tarmac but there is also a parking sign from the PPC which says “No parking at any time”. I have a photo and I think this is confusing.
4. In March 2015 I receive a ticket through the post from the PPC and immediately email “Company A” to request that this ticket is cancelled as promised.
5. “Company A” agrees via email that it should be cancelled and emails “Company B” who I discover actually manage the estate and have direct contact with the PPC
6. In April “Company B” emails “Company A” to confirm that my ticket is indeed cancelled. The email thread also contains instruction from “Company B” to confirm that a grace period of 20 minutes has been agreed with the PPC. In the email thread, the PPC says that this has been implemented. It would appear that “Company A” is dealing with multiple other client vehicles have been nobbled in the loading bay. (I think the signage was also changed since then, but need to check).
7. I email an appeal to the PPC but received no confirmation or response.
8. Fast forward to April 2019 and I receive a letter before claim that only refers to “an outstanding liability” without mentioning the PCN number or duration. There has been the odd letter before then that we ignored due to the promise from "Company B".
9. On 19 June 2019, we receive a court claim form from the PPC for £185.
10. I will file a SAR as soon as possible too.

The contacts at "Company A" and "Company B" have long since left, and "Company B" has been acquired by "Company C"!

I was the driver, but my wife is the keeper.

Questions are:

1. Any tips for my defence? What are my chances?
2. Is this too complicated to defend? Shall I get a lawyer on my side?
3. Shall I also claim damages? This is taking a lot of my time to research and is very annoying!

Thanks!

Coupon-mad

The space I used is marked “loading bay” on the tarmac but there is also a parking sign from the PPC which says “No parking at any time”. I have a photo and I think this is confusing.

Agreed. And it allows loading then, if it's marked as a loading bay!

I say you are almost 100% likely to win in court and in your case with what you've told us, it is SO STRONG that I would be doing a counter claim for breach of the DPA and harassment a la Ferguson v British Gas.

Your case is calling out for a counter claim, as you have evidence that this PCN was cancelled and that the PPC knew as part of the email trail, and that they implemented a 20 minute grace period, and that in any case, it was a LOADING bay and the driver was loading.

No contravention then!

Shall I get a lawyer on my side?

Haha, NO! We do this all the time free, and we see wins 99% of the time.

Which PPC?

KeithP

LaserBlue wrote: »

I received a county court claim on 19 June 2019 and will file an AoS online tonight.

With a Claim Issue Date of 19th June, you have until Monday 8th July to do the Acknowledgement of Service, but there is nothing to be gained by delaying it. To do the AoS, follow the guidance offered in a Dropbox file linked from post #2 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread. About ten minutes work - no thinking required.

Having done the AoS, you have until 4pm on Monday 22nd July 2019 to file your Defence.

That's three weeks away. Loads of time to produce a perfect Defence, but please don't leave it to the last minute.


When you are happy with the content, your Defence should be filed via email as suggested here:

Print your Defence.
1. Sign it and date it.
   
2. Scan the signed document back in and save it as a pdf.
   
3. Send that pdf as an email attachment to CCBCAQ@Justice.gov.uk
   
4. Just put the claim number and the word Defence in the email title, and in the body of the email something like 'Please find my Defence attached'.
   
5. Log into MCOL after a few days to see if the Claim is marked "defence received". If not chase the CCBC until it is.
   
6. Do not be surprised to receive an early copy of the Claimant's Directions Questionnaire, they are just trying to keep you under pressure.
   
7. Wait for your DQ from the CCBC, or download one from the internet, and then re-read post #2 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread to find out exactly what to do with it.

LaserBlue

Thanks for the replies. I will work on my defence now. My wife is the keeper, and I was the driver. I am doing the research and preparing the defence. Is there any possibility that I can attend the court in her place? Or is that frowned upon?

Which PPC?

Is it safe to mention that here? Surely they follow these forums.

How straight forward is a counterclaim for harassment? If the figure was £5K then I could spend some decent time on it.

Coupon-mad

Is there any possibility that I can attend the court in her place? Or is that frowned upon?

Not allowed and she'd lose by default. But you can go with her and speak for her as a lay rep (search the forum).

Also, how straight forward is a counterclaim for harassment? I don't have a legal background, but if the figure was £5K then I could spend some decent time on it.

Counter claim would be in the hundreds so maybe not worth your time, albeit copying from another counter claim is easy enough.

See Henry Hippo's pepipoo forum thread v UKPC (Google it). That won.

LaserBlue

Not allowed and she'd lose by default. But you can go with her and speak for her as a lay rep (search the forum).

At what point is it safe to name the driver? In the defence, in court, or never?

Thanks again. Much appreciated!

Coupon-mad

I think she should defend as driver, if she was the driver, as your case is all about other points really.

DoaM

If she wasn't the driver then she'd be committing perjury? I'd suggest she defends as keeper whilst also naming you as driver.

(The claim has come to her as keeper, yes? Not to you? Whomsoever has received the claim needs to acknowledge it and defend it).

LaserBlue

Coupon-mad wrote: »

I think she should defend as driver, if she was the driver, as your case is all about other points really.

I was the driver. She is the keeper. I am doing all the leg work as I know more about the circumstances, sent the emails, took the photos etc.

Redx

you can do all the leg work but her name is on the court claim and so you cannot just take over and do it yourself (telling her dont worry, I will deal with it and you dont need to do anything)

if going to court , she must attend

even if she names the driver, she is still the one being taken to court as keeper and so must defend her position, so in effect the time to name the driver has gone as soon as the court claim was paid for by the claimant

if the claimant can prove that the keeper is liable and win by using POFA, then its not relevant who was driving at the time

a keeper defence can and does hide behind POFA, BUT A DRIVER DOES NOT HAVE THAT PROTECTION

HER SAYING SHE WASNT DRIVING IS NO DEFENCE IF THE CLAIMANT COMPLIED WITH POFA

I hope you fully understand this ?

LaserBlue

I think I understand, basically:

- The court papers are all in her name, and the defence will come from her as the keeper
- I can accompany her to the hearing, but she must be there and do all the talking
- The fact she wasn't driving is no defence
- For the purposes of her defence (see below) the driver is irrelevant

The facts are: The vehicle was stopped a few minutes to undertake a delivery, which the road markings gives the authorisation to do so. The vehicle was tickteted for a period of two minutes.

I've done some reading, and I'm thinking that her defence should be along the lines of :

- Unclear signage from PPC (doesn't mention unloading, only "no parking")
- "LOADING BAY" written in large letters on the tarmac gives permission
- Reception staff gave verbal permission to use of loading bay
- No grace period allowed according to IPC code of practice (Part B 15.1)
- I have emails from landowner's agents to PPC asking for a 20-minute grace period after I complained
- I have emails from the landowner's agents saying my ticket has been cancelled

Does this line of defence sound reasonable for her as the keeper?