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Clarification request to fight APCOA PCN (BHX)
splinternet
Posts: 56 Forumite
Hi, I'd be very grateful for advice; I appreciate there are many like me who submit their own cases in this forum and someone diligently takes the time to respond to them - hopefully to mine too 
I have received a PCN from APCOA as registered keeper for my car which paused for 30 seconds max. in a hotel drop-off lay-by. It is not clear whether the lay-by is private land owned by the hotel or is just in essence a continuation of the perimeter road provided by the Airport - I suspect the latter as the double yellow lines continue into, along, and out of the lay-by. However, is APCOA acting for the Airport authorities, the hotel, or for themselves just to line their own pockets? Maybe this is irrelevant in the context of responding to the PCN, but I'm just curious to know.
The PCN contains the usual "pay £100 or £50 if paid within 14 days of the date of this notice". I have looked at numerous threads of advice within this forum but I'm afraid I'm unsure of a few things.
First, the question of time-to-issue. The PCN was issued 28 days after the alleged offence (19 if we're measuring business days), I received it two days later in the post. I've read at various places that APCOA must issue a PCN within 14 days, though many of the threads containing this were some years old. There is at least one source I discovered on the internet which says they have 28 days to issue the PCN. So very simple question: which is it? If it really is 14 days, then should I just write this in my appeal and job done?
Secondly, I've eventually found the blue template letter which is widely referred to in many posts. I think I may be on thin ice looking at the listed reasons:
(1) the alleged contravention did not occur (the parking attendant got it wrong). There was no parking attendant involved (just CCTV). My car was indeed stopped (they sent me the photos) and it does show a person leaving the car with luggage heading in the general direction of said hotel. For all I know the person may have been going into the hotel, if not to check-in then for other reasons such as meeting someone there; how would APCOA be able to determine whether or not the stop-off was to allow someone to access the hotel, which would be a perfectly valid use of the lay-by I assume.
(2) There was insufficient signage. The sign at the entrance to the lay-by contains a lot of information; but you would need to stop your car for maybe 10 seconds to internalise it all - either just before the lay-by (i.e. stopping in the perimeter road itself) or in the lay-by and walking back to read it. The second is far safer and less disruptive to traffic than the first, but in either case you would be copped by the CCTV, I assume. It is surely unreasonable to expect someone to be familiar with the sign unless they had a photographic memory and processed all the info in a nano-second.
(3) The vehicle was not parked on the land in question. The photographic evidence shows it was; however, "parked" is questionable, unless it covers short stops; whoever was driving did not turn the engine off, lock the car and walk away from it, returning some time later. It was in the lay-by for a matter of seconds. However, the sign in the photograph does say "no stopping at any time to drop off or pick up". So, again, thin ice.
(4) Mitigating circumstances. Not sure there are any.
(5) The charge is disproportionate and not commercially justifiable. This gives me something to work on; £100 (or even £50) is way over the top for 30 seconds.
(6) The Notice to Keeper is incorrect. What I've received is a PCN so I assume this reason doesn't apply? Or are they one and the same thing?
I'm not sure I have any other reasons to support my claim. So am I indeed on thin ice here?
The template then says [insert your signature] but other advice I've seen (cannot recall if this was in MSE or elsewhere) says print your name but don't sign. I've also seen some advice (I'm pretty sure this was in MSE) that it's best to use APCOA's online appeal facility rather than send a letter in the post; therefore, a signature would not be possible to provide.
Final thought: the same thing happened a week later in reverse; the car stopped momentarily in the same lay-by to pick someone up who had perhaps come from the hotel or from the airport. So should I expect a second PCN in a few days’ time? In general, I don't mind paying parking fees if I'm going to leave the car locked and unattended for a period of time (airports, rail stations, town centres, etc...) if only because it's the path of least resistance compared to getting a parking ticket; but for pausing just 30 seconds in a small lay-by seems overly heavy-handed.
I have received a PCN from APCOA as registered keeper for my car which paused for 30 seconds max. in a hotel drop-off lay-by. It is not clear whether the lay-by is private land owned by the hotel or is just in essence a continuation of the perimeter road provided by the Airport - I suspect the latter as the double yellow lines continue into, along, and out of the lay-by. However, is APCOA acting for the Airport authorities, the hotel, or for themselves just to line their own pockets? Maybe this is irrelevant in the context of responding to the PCN, but I'm just curious to know.
The PCN contains the usual "pay £100 or £50 if paid within 14 days of the date of this notice". I have looked at numerous threads of advice within this forum but I'm afraid I'm unsure of a few things.
First, the question of time-to-issue. The PCN was issued 28 days after the alleged offence (19 if we're measuring business days), I received it two days later in the post. I've read at various places that APCOA must issue a PCN within 14 days, though many of the threads containing this were some years old. There is at least one source I discovered on the internet which says they have 28 days to issue the PCN. So very simple question: which is it? If it really is 14 days, then should I just write this in my appeal and job done?
Secondly, I've eventually found the blue template letter which is widely referred to in many posts. I think I may be on thin ice looking at the listed reasons:
(1) the alleged contravention did not occur (the parking attendant got it wrong). There was no parking attendant involved (just CCTV). My car was indeed stopped (they sent me the photos) and it does show a person leaving the car with luggage heading in the general direction of said hotel. For all I know the person may have been going into the hotel, if not to check-in then for other reasons such as meeting someone there; how would APCOA be able to determine whether or not the stop-off was to allow someone to access the hotel, which would be a perfectly valid use of the lay-by I assume.
(2) There was insufficient signage. The sign at the entrance to the lay-by contains a lot of information; but you would need to stop your car for maybe 10 seconds to internalise it all - either just before the lay-by (i.e. stopping in the perimeter road itself) or in the lay-by and walking back to read it. The second is far safer and less disruptive to traffic than the first, but in either case you would be copped by the CCTV, I assume. It is surely unreasonable to expect someone to be familiar with the sign unless they had a photographic memory and processed all the info in a nano-second.
(3) The vehicle was not parked on the land in question. The photographic evidence shows it was; however, "parked" is questionable, unless it covers short stops; whoever was driving did not turn the engine off, lock the car and walk away from it, returning some time later. It was in the lay-by for a matter of seconds. However, the sign in the photograph does say "no stopping at any time to drop off or pick up". So, again, thin ice.
(4) Mitigating circumstances. Not sure there are any.
(5) The charge is disproportionate and not commercially justifiable. This gives me something to work on; £100 (or even £50) is way over the top for 30 seconds.
(6) The Notice to Keeper is incorrect. What I've received is a PCN so I assume this reason doesn't apply? Or are they one and the same thing?
I'm not sure I have any other reasons to support my claim. So am I indeed on thin ice here?
The template then says [insert your signature] but other advice I've seen (cannot recall if this was in MSE or elsewhere) says print your name but don't sign. I've also seen some advice (I'm pretty sure this was in MSE) that it's best to use APCOA's online appeal facility rather than send a letter in the post; therefore, a signature would not be possible to provide.
Final thought: the same thing happened a week later in reverse; the car stopped momentarily in the same lay-by to pick someone up who had perhaps come from the hotel or from the airport. So should I expect a second PCN in a few days’ time? In general, I don't mind paying parking fees if I'm going to leave the car locked and unattended for a period of time (airports, rail stations, town centres, etc...) if only because it's the path of least resistance compared to getting a parking ticket; but for pausing just 30 seconds in a small lay-by seems overly heavy-handed.
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Comments
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Your appeal points are not from the NEWBIES blue template and many of them just will not work.
It actually looks like the godawful appeal from the "official" MSE site which gives dangerously incorrect and out of date information (points 4 and 5 respectively.)
The template you want is in post 1 of the NEWBIES. There is only one template in post 1 and it's in blue text.
Send it unedited from the keeper.
Look up airport byelaws to see if they apply. The keeper can't be held liable if they do. Search for other threads at this location.
Read post 3 of the NEWBIES ready for PoPLA.
Complain to the hotel manger.
Complain to your MP.I married my cousin. I had to...I don't have a sister.
All my screwdrivers are cordless."You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks0 -
Read the BPA code of practice re grace periods.
Nine times out of ten these tickets are scams so complain to your MP.
Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.
Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted
Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.You never know how far you can go until you go too far.0 -
you are over thinking this , the keeper has no liabilty so just use the blue text template from the NEWBIES FAQ STICKY thread , top of this forum , third thread down , post #1 , appealing as keeper by choosing 6 , the pcn is the NTK as this Notice came in the post and was addressed to The Keeper (NTK)
APCOA will reject this appeal and issue a popla code
then adapt a popla defence based on previous winners , like this one
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5973198/pcn-notice-birmingham-airport-pick-up
and this one
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5967661/help-with-ticket-from-apcoa-birmingham-airport-drop-off
same advice in this one where APCOA cancelled on seeing the template
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5973510/parking-charge-notice-apcoa
you will find the same advice in those threads and other BHX threads
once APCOA see the popla appeal on the popla website , they will chuck in the towel
so a few hoops to go through , but a cancellation will follow at the POPLA stage
no need for all the guff in post #1 above, no need for any angst either
DO NOT USE THE MSE TEMPLATE AT ALL0 -
....appealing as keeper by choosing 6 , the pcn is the NTK as this Notice came in the post and was addressed to The Keeper (NTK)
Redx - does this refer to my #6 in the OP? In the doc this came from (referenced from this thread, section 3 "The appeals approach - do it by the book" - Challenge a private parking firm), it says:
• [If appealing against a notice to keeper] The notice to keeper is incorrect.
The Notice to Keeper failed to meet the obligations of Schedule 4 of the POFA Act 2012. COLOR="Red"]eg if the Notice to Keeper arrived late (after 15 days following the alleged parking office, or after 56 days following the issue of a parking charge notice on your windscreen[/COLOR.
Interesting that you say:DO NOT USE THE MSE TEMPLATE AT ALL
I assume this is what I was using. If it is wrong / out of date / or has simply been superseded by something better, is there a warning to this effect - or perhaps it should even be removed from the site?0 -
I dont know what you were using nor do I know where 6) came from as you posted it so I assumed it was on the apcoa website for appeals
my point is clear
appeal as KEEPER with the blue text template from the NEWBIES thread, not the MSE template
MSE have been asked to remove their dreadful advice and have never done so , take it up with them because we have wasted our time complaining about it and I have no interest in what they have said at all. to me it does not exist - end of
do it my way and you will succeed, thats all I can tell you , which you can see in the 3 links of over twenty links I found using the forum search
no need for any questions, just do it like I said, using the same appeals you saw in those links0 -
splinternet wrote: »Redx - does this refer to my #6 in the OP? In the doc this came from (referenced from this thread, section 3 "The appeals approach - do it by the book" - Challenge a private parking firm), it says:
• [If appealing against a notice to keeper] The notice to keeper is incorrect.
The Notice to Keeper failed to meet the obligations of Schedule 4 of the POFA Act 2012. COLOR="Red"]eg if the Notice to Keeper arrived late (after 15 days following the alleged parking office, or after 56 days following the issue of a parking charge notice on your windscreen[/COLOR.
Interesting that you say:
I assume this is what I was using. If it is wrong / out of date / or has simply been superseded by something better, is there a warning to this effect - or perhaps it should even be removed from the site?
You are quoting from the "official" MSE parking page. I have already told you it is old, out of date, incorrect, and dangerous.
Ditch it and start again. Do not use it. Ignore it. Forget everything you have read on that part of the site.
As Redx has said, the regulars here have complained over and over and aske for it to be removed, but you might as well talk to a brick wall.
Do as Redx and I have both said; use the appeal template in blue from post 1 of the NEWBIES.
Do not use a template from anywhere else.
The NEWBIES is just underneath where you clicked on the
button, a few clicks back from here.
It looks like this.
Sticky: **NEWBIES!! PRIVATE PARKING TICKET? OLD OR NEW? **READ THESE FAQS FIRST!** Thankyou!I married my cousin. I had to...I don't have a sister.All my screwdrivers are cordless."You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks0 -
All of it is awful, as you were reading the MSE article. Sadly, it is TERRIBLE.Redx - does this refer to my #6 in the OP?
We know. We've tried to get it changed and have been repeatedly ignored.In the doc this came from (referenced from this thread, section 3 "The appeals approach - do it by the book" - Challenge a private parking firm)
We've tried till we were blue in the face. MSE seem to have ignored our knowledge on this subject even though we win at POPLA v the likes of APCOA and (unlike the MSE article) we don't use hopeless points in defences and appeals, and nor do we tell people to hand the driver's details over to the scumbags.If it is wrong / out of date / or has simply been superseded by something better, is there a warning to this effect - or perhaps it should even be removed from the site?
The WORST thing that the MSE article wrongly tells people, is to appeal even if the parking firm isn't in the BPA or IPC! Thus handing the keeper's name and address (or even worse, the driver's) data on a plate to scammers whose PCN had as much clout as a Burger King flyer on a windscreen, and who couldn't have got data.
Anyway I digress. APCOA can get your data but happen not to use POFA wording.
The forum's way works 100% of the time at POPLA stage v APCOA.PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0 -
OP, have you read, and if so, have you understood Schedule 4 of The Protection of Freedoms Act WRT keeper liability? It should be yhe main plank of your appeal.lYou never know how far you can go until you go too far.0
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In addition to the template wording, I have added the following draft, ready to be sent online: (BTW did I read somewhere not to be too hasty in sending the online appeal but to wait until close to the end of the 14 (or is it 28?) days?):
I assume this PCN is being issued under the terms of Keeper Liability and POFA 2012. I would point out there are two aspects of this where this PCN is non-compliant:
1. For ANPR tickets, the PCN (a.k.a. Notice to Keeper) must be served no later than 14 days after the vehicle was parked. In this instance, the date of the alleged parking was 22 May 2019, and the date of issue of the PCN was 19th June 2019 and the date it arrived at my address was 21st June. I leave you to check the calendar but 19th June was 28 days, whilst 21st June was 30 days. Even if you only count business days, the corresponding periods were 20 and 22 days, so whichever way you look at it, the PCN was issued too late and is therefore void
2. A Notice to Keeper must clearly state the period the car was parked. This is not clearly stated in the PCN and makes it void.
I would welcome any advice on wording or even whether this is relevant.0 -
Could someone let me know if the italicised section in my last post is OK, or should I omit it? Would much appreciate your advice. Thanks in advance.0
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