PIP: Is this letter to harsh?

Denise241270

Hi all,


I am going to do a letter of: RECONSIDER A DECISION with pip and this is what i am thinking of sending, do you think it's to harsh? would you change anything?


Letter:


Preparing food:


Letter says: Needs to use an aid or appliance to be able to either prepare or cook a simple meal.


Should be: Cannot prepare and cook food.


I explained that due to his psoriatic arthritis he cannot lift pots and pans and due to his autism it is not safe for him to use cooking appliances as he has done on many occasions forgot that he has turned on the appliance, that is why i don't let Jason go near the appliances.


Eating and drinking:


Letter says: You can eat and drink unaided.


Should be: Assistance to be able to cut up food.


I explained that due to his psoriatic arthritis he has trouble cutting up hard foods, i cut up for him all food that would be to hard for him to do himself.


I also have to arrange his food as most foods have to be kept separate from each other or he won't eat it.


Making budgeting decisions:


Letter says: Can manage complex budgeting decisions unaided.


Should be: Needs prompting or assistance to be able to make simple budgeting decisions.


I did at the time in the PIP meeting feel that Jason was being coerced into saying he can make budgeting decisions, he was asked over and over again in a way that kind of felt he was being pushed into saying he can.


The letter says "He would be able to learn how to setup direct debits" this simply is not going to happen, Jason cannot make budgeting decisions unaided due to his autism, he has never been good when it comes to numbers/maths.


Planning and following journeys:


Letter says: Can plan and follow the route of a journey unaided.


Should be: Cannot plan the route of a journey.


Myself and Jason explained that he cannot plan a route let alone a journey unaided, i explained that due to his autism and mental health his a danger to himself and others, there has been times when he has been hit by vehicles due to him not concentrating on his surroundings, he even stands still when a large vehicle approaches from behind due to the noise, when his outdoors he looses all concentration, he cannot go on local transport has he gets anxious when people sit close to him.


He also has great difficult understanding timetables and due to his social skills he would not ask anyone for help.


If Jason has to go somewhere i will always go with him for his safety, if i don't go with him he will not go outdoors.


It's either myself who goes with him or my eldest son who does not live far from us goes with him.


Also regarding his walking and getting around I have on many occasions been with him and out of nowhere he gets shooting pains down his back which is related to his degenerative discs, when this happens he has no choice but to stand/sit still and I call a taxi for us to go home so he can lie down on a flat surface for the pain to die down, I find it strange there is no mention of this in the letter.


Also in the letter it is in some words saying his in no discomfort, I can tell you 100% that after sitting in that room for almost 2hrs by the time we got home he was in pain for the rest of the day, again I find it hard to believe that in such short time a conclusion has been made to how he feels and what pain his in.


Also his mental health plays a big part when it comes to going out but he was not asked about how his mental health effects him.


Also in the letter it says “Jason has demonstrated adequate general memory and concentration without the need for prompting, and was able to hear and respond appropriately to all questions and using speech normal in flow, rate and content”


Although this is true but only true for the situation he was in, a room with just one person, a room that was dimly lit, a room with almost zero noise.


If the room had more than one person, not dimly lit, noisy than the outcome would be completely different, he would lose all concentration, he would of probably not of spoken and would of looked at me for help or got hostile.


It also says in the letter that he has no current specialist input for mental health, that is because the system only allows you 20 CBT sessions, his depression was so severe they game him another 20 CBT sessions, after that they just cut you off, they could only offer him group sessions not one on one, he cannot do group sessions due to being in a room with lots of other people.


Jason has told me on many occasions why his depression/mental health will never go away, he explained it to me like this:

• My thoughts in my head of my upbringing
• I wake not knowing what will be the worst pain, will it be my psoriatic arthritis or will it be my degenerative discs or will it be both.
• Having to deal with Autism.
• All of the above effects my psoriasis as psoriasis thrives on depression.
• And when I finally get to bed for sleep my tinnitus kicks in.
• It's a never ending spiral of pain and depression.

Also I cannot believe there was no discussion in the meeting of how Jason's mental health effects him.


Overall I felt quite disgusted how Jason was being dealt with, there seemed to me there was no understanding of how his, Autism, Psoriatic arthritis, Degenerative discs, Mental health effects his daily living.

poppy12345

Preparing food. He's more likely to score extra points for needing assistance in this activity because of the danger around him. You have to think would he be able to cook if you or someone else was with him. My opinion is that the maximum he could score here is 4 points and not 8 based on what you said above.


Eating and Drinking. He will only score points here if he's at risk of choking when he eats and therefore you cutting up his food will reduce that risk. He won't score points because he can't cut his own food or because he doesn't like certain food touching each other. This activity is all about a person ability to be nourished.


Making budgeting decisions looks ok.


Planning and following a journey. Possibly you have under estimated what he could score here. You said can't plan the route of a journey which would score 8 points. What about can't follow the route of a familiar journey to score 12 points.


If he's unable to go anywhere alone because of risk of roads and because he would be a danger to himself. In my opinion that could score 12 points under descriptor F.


How many points did he score for daily living and mobility?


Have a read of this link it will give you more understanding about what the descriptors mean and the criteria.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/personal-independence-payment-assessment-guide-for-assessment-providers/pip-assessment-guide-part-2-the-assessment-criteria

Denise241270

Hi Poppy12345,


Thanks for the info.


Daily Living: 9
Mobility: 4

Alice_Holt

Where did he score the 9 DL points (and the 4 mobility).

I presume he didn't he score any points for budgeting?
Simple budgeting is understanding change given in a shop.
Complex budgeting is managing household finances - which would earn 2 points.

Where do you think the extra points are to get from 9 to 12 for an enhanced DL award?
2 on budgeting & 2 additional points on preparing food?

Think about what he can do to an "acceptable standard", and in a "reasonable time" .

Could he follow a simple recipe? Would he understand weights of ingredients? Would he know when things were cooked properly?

I'd include taking nutrition - but give more information on why he needs prompting and supervision.
Would he eat a meal if not helped?

I'd suggest putting more examples in, to make it more vivid for the DWP decision maker.
Is there someone (another family member / carer) who could write a brief letter confirming the help he needs?

I think (like poppy) that not being able to follow a familiar route may apply.

This site is good (but there is a c.£20 membership cost per year). The guides are very useful.
https://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/personal-independence-payment-pip

This is also helpful
https://www.advicenow.org.uk/pip-tool

[Deleted User]

Ditto all of the above, you need I think to look at where points were scored and where you think points should have been scored but weren't, that may help you simplify the letter, but its rare for a MR to get any change so be prepared to go to appeal.

[Deleted User]

While the MR is rarely successful, I viewed it as a way of getting evidence/disagreements with the report down on paper. This was considered when I went to Tribunal.

Is your son on painkillers? Give a copy of his full repeat prescription list.

Consider counselling from somewhere like MIND. I use this with my son who has ASD, not every counsellor gets ASD and its effects, but try and find one who is able to help your son deal with his emotions/stress.

Denise241270

Many thanks all for the information you have given, i have taken your advice and have changed the information i am passing onto the DWP.


I will be copying my info onto PDF CRMR1



Many thanks Alice for the links to the websites.


His scoring right now is:


Preparing food:
b. Needs to use an aid or appliance to be able to either prepare or cook a simple meal. 2 points.

Eating and Drinking:
a. You can eat and drink unaided. 0 points.

Managing your treatments:
(iii) supervision, prompting or assistance to be able to monitor a health condition. 1 point.

Washing and bathing:
b. Needs to use an aid or appliance to be able to wash or bathe. 2 points.

Managing your toilet needs:
a. Can manage toilet needs or incontinence unaided. 0 points.

Dressing and undressing:
b. Needs to use an aid or appliance to be able to dress or undress. 2 points.

Comminicating:
a. Can express and understand verbal information unaided. 0 points.

Reading:
a. Can read and understand basic and complex written information either unaided or using spectacles or contact lenses. 0 points.

Mixing with other people:
b. Needs prompting to be able to engage with other people. 2 points.

Making budgeting decisions:
a. Can manage complex budgeting decisions unaided. 0 points.

Planning and following journeys:
a. Can plan and follow the route of a journey unaided. 0 points.

Moving around:
b. Can stand and then move more than 50 metres but no more than 200 metres, either aided or unaided. 4 points.


And this is the updated info i will be passing on to DWP:


Making budgeting decisions:


Letter says: Can manage complex budgeting decisions unaided.


Should be: Needs prompting or assistance to be able to make simple budgeting decisions.


I did at the time in the PIP meeting feel that Jason was being coerced into saying he can make budgeting decisions, he was asked over and over again in a way that kind of felt he was being pushed into saying he can.


The letter says "He would be able to learn how to setup direct debits" this simply is not going to happen, Jason cannot make budgeting decisions unaided due to his autism, he has never been good when it comes to numbers/maths.


All simple budgeting gets done by myself, anything complex I get my eldest son to help us both.


Planning and following journeys:


Letter says: Can plan and follow the route of a journey unaided.


Should be: Cannot follow the route of a familiar journey without another person, an assistance dog or an orientation aid.


Myself and Jason explained that he cannot plan a route let alone a journey unaided, i explained that due to his autism and mental health his a danger to himself and others, there has been times when he has been hit by vehicles due to him not concentrating on his surroundings, he even stands still when a large vehicle approaches from behind due to the noise, when his outdoors he looses all concentration, he cannot go on local transport has he gets anxious when strangers sit close to him or there are to many people around him.


He also has great difficulty understanding timetables and due to his social skills he would not ask anyone for help.


If Jason has to go somewhere i will always go with him for his safety, if i don't go with him he will not go outdoors.


It's either myself who goes with him or my eldest son who does not live far from us goes with him.


Regarding his walking and getting around I have on many occasions been with him and out of nowhere he gets shooting pains down his back which is related to his degenerative discs, when this happens he has no choice but to stand/sit still and I call a taxi for us to go home so he can lie down on a flat surface for the pain to die down, I find it strange there is no mention of this in the letter.


In the letter it is in some words saying his in no discomfort, I can tell you 100% that after sitting in that room for almost 2hrs by the time we got home he was in pain for the rest of the day, again I find it hard to believe that in such short time a conclusion has been made to how he feels and what pain his in.


Also in the letter it says “Jason has demonstrated adequate general memory and concentration without the need for prompting, and was able to hear and respond appropriately to all questions and using speech normal in flow, rate and content”


Although this is true but only true for the situation he was in, a room with just one person, a room that was dimly lit, a room with almost zero noise.


If the room had more than one person, not dimly lit, noisy than the outcome would be completely different, he would lose all concentration, he would of probably not of spoken and would of looked at me for help or got hostile.


His mental health plays a big part when it comes to going out but he was not asked about how his mental health effects him indoors and outdoors.


It also says in the letter that he has no current specialist input for mental health, that is because the system only allows you 20 CBT sessions, his depression was so severe they game him another 20 CBT sessions, after that they just cut you off, they could only offer him group sessions not one on one, he cannot do group sessions due to being in a room with lots of other people.


I cannot believe there was no discussion in the meeting of how Jason's mental health effects him.


Overall I felt quite disgusted how Jason was being dealt with, there seemed to me there was no understanding of how his, Autism, Psoriatic arthritis, Degenerative discs, Mental health effects his daily living.


_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _


Does the letter seem ok to you's?



As it seems that MR being unsuccesful and it looks more than likely that it will go onto a appeal i have some questions.


Will he still get his PIP while MR and then onto the appeal goes through? or does his PIP stop as soon as you do a MR?


Also if it does go to a tribunal how many people will be in the room as he will find it difficult being in a room with too many people and he will clam up.


All the best


Denise

poppy12345

For the descriptors that apply to him i'd add more examples of the reasons why he needs assistance/help/support. What would happen if he didn't have support?



Any award that he already has will continue to paid while going through the MR/Tribunal. There's a chance he could lose everything he already has but mostly MR decisions remain the same.

Alice_Holt

You are only asking for 2 additional Daily Living points (on budgeting), this will not change the DL award, even if the DWP / Tribunal concur.
12 points are needed for an enhanced award.

So I would put the Mobilising points first (as if agreed this will lead to a mobility award) and make this the main point of the MR.

I would then add something along the lines of "No points were awarded for budgeting in the Daily Living component. However, this is something Jason cannot do to an acceptable standard. He requires help to set up DD's......etc....etc. We realise that this will not lead to an increased DL award, but it illustrates that the assessment did not fully account for the difficulties that his autism and poor mental health bring to his day-to day life.

In the mobility bit I wouldn't include "Regarding his walking and getting around I have on many occasions been with him and out of nowhere he gets shooting pains down his back which is related to his degenerative discs, when this happens he has no choice but to stand/sit still and I call a taxi for us to go home so he can lie down on a flat surface for the pain to die down, I find it strange there is no mention of this in the letter." nor would i include "In the letter it is in some words saying his in no discomfort, I can tell you 100% that after sitting in that room for almost 2hrs by the time we got home he was in pain for the rest of the day, again I find it hard to believe that in such short time a conclusion has been made to how he feels and what pain his in."

This relates more to the Moving Around activity for which he has scored 4 points as he cannot walk more than 200m without needing to stop due to physical discomfort. Just concentrate on the psychological distress and cognitive problems. The activity you are aiming to get additional points from is Following and Planning journeys - which is about cognitive difficulties and mental distress - so concentrate on this aspect and use examples to make it vivid for the decision maker.
As his elder brother also accompanies him outdoors, include a letter from him explaining the mental difficulties Jason experiences outdoors and why he NEEDS to be with someone, and what would happen if he wasn't accompanied.


Re "f the room had more than one person, not dimly lit, noisy than the outcome would be completely different, he would lose all concentration, he would of probably not of spoken and would of looked at me for help or got hostile". Relate this to how he would react outdoors, and how this would stop him safely following a journey if on his own. Make your answer just related to the activity of following journeys.

Make more of the point about not being able to cope with public transport, or around groups of people outside.
What would happen if became lost? How would he react?
Do you have to calm him? Have you ever had to abandon journeys due to his mental distress?
Are they times when he can't go out even with someone to accompany him?
Etc, etc

Put more examples in to show how his psychological distress means he needs someone with him all the time when outside (such as the accidents you refer to).

Look at the PIP assessment guide to get a idea of what the DWP DM will be considering.

Denise241270

Sorry for the late reply Alice it's been hectic in my home, many thanks for the detailed info.


I have drafted up something but i am quite scared for Jason as if it goes to a Tribunal which it sounds like it will i don't know how Jason will cope being in a room with more than one person, he copes one on one but anymore than that he cannot cope.


The thought of 2-3 people looking at him and asking questions will be very daunting for him and he may just do the following:


Not answer
Won't talk
Leave the room
Not enter the room
Get hostile and abusive


I just can't see it going to well......so much so i am in two minds of doing a appeal.


All the best


Denise

poppy12345

Are you his appointee? If so then you can speak on his behalf during the hearing.