Universal credit and private pension contributions

dul50n

v1ckyt said:

Similar situation, my pension contributions have been assigned to a decision maker, but I can't get an answer on how long the DM is allowed to take over looking at the evidence and make a decision. Is there a statutory timeframe for a decision to be made does anyone know please?

To quote the DWP, "No timescales"

Consequently, without a final decision, you can't further a complaint with the Independent Case Examiner, Parliamentary Ombudsman or go to Tribunal

NedS

dul50n said:

v1ckyt said:

Similar situation, my pension contributions have been assigned to a decision maker, but I can't get an answer on how long the DM is allowed to take over looking at the evidence and make a decision. Is there a statutory timeframe for a decision to be made does anyone know please?

To quote the DWP, "No timescales"

Consequently, without a final decision, you can't further a complaint with the Independent Case Examiner, Parliamentary Ombudsman or go to Tribunal

Making a complaint via your MP will focus the collective mind of DWP and get that decision made quicker.

Given UC is a monthly benefit, it does not seem unreasonable that they should be able to calculate the right amount of UC to pay you within one month, so if it's taking longer than that, I would escalate through your MP. Might even be worth giving them a heads up via your journal that you have contacted your MP to escalate, so they know it's coming as even that may move them to action.

v1ckyt

Thanks, matter was referred to a decision maker on 15th July, so I will give it a full calendar month from then, and then start politely stamping foot. 

michaels

My first 2 months are with decision maker but I did get asked to upload pension details for month3 which I am hoping is a good sign - will see in 2 days if they have done month 3 right or I need to go for another mr

Snowball45

An update on our current position. I made a complaint regarding unreasonable delays after the initial decision had been taken to accept that pension contributions would be deducted from our earnings, my MP wrote to the DWP also.   
The complaints team wrote back stating that it needs to go to a decision maker, MR every month to determine that a claimant is not depriving themselves of income. I will insert the paragraphs below in quotation marks. . I believe this has been covered in this thread already that paying into a pension is an allowable deduction so there can be no deprivation of income/ capital, can anyone clarify this point? I am very tempted to take this to the  Independent Case Examiner if this is the case. Here is what they replied.
"The law (Universal Credit Regulations 2013, regulation 55(5)) allows all relievable pension contributions (under section 188 of the Finance Act 2004) to be deducted from the calculation of a claimant’s employed earnings whether this be from a scheme an employer has and/ or a personal one. However, the amount of pension contributions being deducted needs to be considered to ensure that claimants are not depriving themselves of earned income by making greater than expected contributions in an effort to increase the amount of UC they can receive. A decision is therefore required each month to establish whether the pension contributions can be treated as an allowable deduction. We aim to make the decision within 28 days and are unable to escalate until this period has passed. Once an escalation is raised, a decision maker should review the case within three working days. They will then make a decision if possible, or on occasion may have to request additional evidence. Once we have made a decision, we refer this to a technical team to have the earnings adjusted, there is no timescale in place for this to be completed, but generally most are completed within seven days. We can then issue any arrears payment due to the claimant. "
We have now received the first 3 assessment periods and are currently up to date after so much hassle, it should not have to be like this.

NedS

Snowball45 said:

An update on our current position. I made a complaint regarding unreasonable delays after the initial decision had been taken to accept that pension contributions would be deducted from our earnings, my MP wrote to the DWP also.   
The complaints team wrote back stating that it needs to go to a decision maker, MR every month to determine that a claimant is not depriving themselves of income. I will insert the paragraphs below in quotation marks. . I believe this has been covered in this thread already that paying into a pension is an allowable deduction so there can be no deprivation of income/ capital, can anyone clarify this point? I am very tempted to take this to the  Independent Case Examiner if this is the case. Here is what they replied.
"The law (Universal Credit Regulations 2013, regulation 55(5)) allows all relievable pension contributions (under section 188 of the Finance Act 2004) to be deducted from the calculation of a claimant’s employed earnings whether this be from a scheme an employer has and/ or a personal one. However, the amount of pension contributions being deducted needs to be considered to ensure that claimants are not depriving themselves of earned income by making greater than expected contributions in an effort to increase the amount of UC they can receive. A decision is therefore required each month to establish whether the pension contributions can be treated as an allowable deduction. We aim to make the decision within 28 days and are unable to escalate until this period has passed. Once an escalation is raised, a decision maker should review the case within three working days. They will then make a decision if possible, or on occasion may have to request additional evidence. Once we have made a decision, we refer this to a technical team to have the earnings adjusted, there is no timescale in place for this to be completed, but generally most are completed within seven days. We can then issue any arrears payment due to the claimant. "
We have now received the first 3 assessment periods and are currently up to date after so much hassle, it should not have to be like this.

Yes, that text about an "MR every month to determine that a claimant is not depriving themselves of income" comes from guidance on an internal JIRA ticket. Historically, I think it stems from a basic lack of understanding and a disbelief of the regulations that a claimant can choose to pay (all of) their salary into a personal pension in order to receive UC (or more UC). Anyway, that is the DWP internal guidance so that is what they (should) follow.

I would argue, quite simply, that a claimant cannot deprive themselves of that which they have received as defined in Advice for Decision Makers (ADM) guidance, H3205:

H3205  Claimants cannot deprive themselves of income that they have already received. If a payment of earned income is received it is actual income and should be taken into account in the normal way.

Clearly the income has been received (as evidenced on the RTI feed), and should be taken into account in the normal way, which is to deduct tax, NI and all relievable pension contributions as defined in UC Regs 55(5)(a), which is the only regulation that is relevant. A DM should have no issue getting this aspect correct.

The only thing for a DM to consider is if regulation 55(5)(a) applies in this case, and that is determined from the evidence of the pension contribution as shown on the claimant's pension statement (or other provided evidence). To argue a decision is required for deprivation of income is nonsense as both the UC Regulations and the ADM guidance are very clear on this point. However, a decision does still need to be made as the "technical team" (Agent Support) will not amend the RTI earnings feed to deduct the pension contributions without a favourable decision from a decision maker.

michaels

[Post removed by Forum Team]

I think in theory the tribunals judgements are searchable although I had a good look for this one and couldn't find it.

NedS

@stevewebb1 I'm not aware of any cases having reached tribunal. I am aware of a number of cases that have been filed for tribunal, which DWP subsequently conceded and lapsed the appeal in the claimants favour.

I too would be extremely interested to hear of any cases that have made it to tribunal. I find it completely unfathomable that DWP still seem incapable of correctly applying the law in these cases. The current DWP guidance is very clear that the pension contributions should be fully disregarded once evidence has been provided by the claimant.

P68696c

Having read this thread, and some similar old ones, I have not yet managed to come across anyone discussing how personal pension contributions can be reported to Universal Credit for people claiming UC who are neither employed nor self employed, such as full time carers.

My partner an I have a joint UC claim (not long migrated from Tax Credits). I am full-time employed and pay into a pension via salary deduction, my partner is a full time carer for our daughter.

There seems to be no mechanism by which my partner can report contributions to her personal pension.

How should this be achieved? There is nothing in any of the guidance documents as far as we can see.

When we were on Tax Credits we used to fill out a form TC825 and send it in, along with our Annual Declaration, to explain how the deductions had been made and the totals calculated. We did this because sometimes the figures didn't necessarily look as one might expect, so we felt it needed mapping out for them.

The situation with TCs was that, as it was a joint claim, apparently it didn't matter whose earnings the pension deductions were made from, as the net result would be the same.

As a hangover form being self employed, I still get asked by UC every month to enter figures for my self employed earnings and expenses. I am wondering if we are allowed to simply enter payments into my partner's pension in there, as there seems to be no mechanism for doing it through my partner's UC profile.

We have reached out to UC via Journal entries but they seem to find it hard to understand what we are talking about. The first thing my partner was asked in response was whether the enquiry was in relation to pension contributions or receiving money from a pension - the wording of "payments to a personal pension" had seemed clear enough. And they have our dates of birth.

It often takes around 24hrs to get a response from UC to a journal entry, so when every response ends up being just another question (which they might have been able to answer themselves had they just taken the time to re-read the message and/or apply some common sense), it can be very slow going getting anywhere with them.

We are hopeful that the knowledge and experience of some of the members here may be able to help us to get some answers a little bit sooner than we might otherwise.

Thank you in advance.

peteuk

P68696c said:

Having read this thread, and some similar old ones, I have not yet managed to come across anyone discussing how personal pension contributions can be reported to Universal Credit for people claiming UC who are neither employed nor self employed, such as full time carers.

My partner an I have a joint UC claim (not long migrated from Tax Credits). I am full-time employed and pay into a pension via salary deduction, my partner is a full time carer for our daughter.

There seems to be no mechanism by which my partner can report contributions to her personal pension.

How should this be achieved? There is nothing in any of the guidance documents as far as we can see.

When we were on Tax Credits we used to fill out a form TC825 and send it in, along with our Annual Declaration, to explain how the deductions had been made and the totals calculated. We did this because sometimes the figures didn't necessarily look as one might expect, so we felt it needed mapping out for them.

The situation with TCs was that, as it was a joint claim, apparently it didn't matter whose earnings the pension deductions were made from, as the net result would be the same.

As a hangover form being self employed, I still get asked by UC every month to enter figures for my self employed earnings and expenses. I am wondering if we are allowed to simply enter payments into my partner's pension in there, as there seems to be no mechanism for doing it through my partner's UC profile.

We have reached out to UC via Journal entries but they seem to find it hard to understand what we are talking about. The first thing my partner was asked in response was whether the enquiry was in relation to pension contributions or receiving money from a pension - the wording of "payments to a personal pension" had seemed clear enough. And they have our dates of birth.

It often takes around 24hrs to get a response from UC to a journal entry, so when every response ends up being just another question (which they might have been able to answer themselves had they just taken the time to re-read the message and/or apply some common sense), it can be very slow going getting anywhere with them.

We are hopeful that the knowledge and experience of some of the members here may be able to help us to get some answers a little bit sooner than we might otherwise.

Thank you in advance.

Whould be better off copying and deleting this coment and opening a new thread.