Universal credit and private pension contributions

TMel42

Alice_Holt said:

TMel42 said:

NedS said:

TMel42 said:

I must have jinxed everything when I said tax credits have processed my private pension contributions fine before. They now wont process them on my final tax credits claim as it doesn't go through RTI and I have had to do a MR for that also so far. They have now deducted what they deem is an overpayment from my UC claim, all this after I have processed the claim the same way since 2015. It is driving me bonkers - I now am working through an MR for tax credits and a tribunal for UC. It's complete madness!

So your tribunal was against UC for repayment an overpayment of tax credits (caused by incorrect treatment of pension deductions)?

With respect to the UC issue, yes you would lose that fight as UC are required by law to recover any overpayments so you have no legal argument.

It sounds like your battle is with HMRC and tax credits to get the pension contributions correctly recognised and the overpayment reversed/refunded, whether that be directly from HMRC or through UC is kind of irrelevant.

My tribunal case was regarding UC not deducting the private pension payments from my Universal credit income, therefore they are then making a take home pay deduction from Universal Credit. 

         This is puzzling, as calcotti posted earlier in the thread:

         "Refer to legislation quoted here
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/75817908/#Comment_75817908
If MR has failed then lodge an appeal to tribunal service. Eventually someone will look at it properly and sort it for you. You are entitled to have the pension contributions taken into account.

You could also refer to this House of Commons guidance
Document Title (parliament.uk), bottom of page 4

Pension contributions
Pension contributions paid into a pension scheme via the claimant’s employer and are being deducted from earnings before tax are disregarded. ..
. If contributions are taken after the earnings have been taxed, the pension contribution is to be deducted from the reported RTI figure.
This may also apply when a claimant pays into a personal pension scheme. 

and

ADM Chapter H3: Earned income - employed earnings (publishing.service.gov.uk)

paragraphs H3170 - H3173  "


    Is it possibly then,an issue with the type of pension scheme, and if it is approved?

    You may wish to request a statement of reasons for that decision from HMCTS  (details of how to do this will be on the decision paperwork).   If, from the S of R, you can then spot that the tribunal has made an error in law - then request the decision is set aside. 
    Did you supply evidence / a statement / verbal evidence?

Thanks for that info, yes I have done all of that and quoted the relevant regulations. It went to MR and has been to tribunal. I have had my MP involved too. But still they have said no. The private pension has had tax relief payments applied so all above board in that respect. I'm at a complete loss as to why it keeps getting rejected. 

I sent statements stating all those regulations regarding earned income. It's absolutely baffling why it has been refused. 
All I can thin k now is to see if I can get some kind of legal aid to help me, I'm not sure I can do anything further alone as I have pretty much done everything that everyone else has needed to do on this thread with no luck.  

Alice_Holt

TMel42 said:

Alice_Holt said:

TMel42 said:

NedS said:

TMel42 said:

I must have jinxed everything when I said tax credits have processed my private pension contributions fine before. They now wont process them on my final tax credits claim as it doesn't go through RTI and I have had to do a MR for that also so far. They have now deducted what they deem is an overpayment from my UC claim, all this after I have processed the claim the same way since 2015. It is driving me bonkers - I now am working through an MR for tax credits and a tribunal for UC. It's complete madness!

So your tribunal was against UC for repayment an overpayment of tax credits (caused by incorrect treatment of pension deductions)?

With respect to the UC issue, yes you would lose that fight as UC are required by law to recover any overpayments so you have no legal argument.

It sounds like your battle is with HMRC and tax credits to get the pension contributions correctly recognised and the overpayment reversed/refunded, whether that be directly from HMRC or through UC is kind of irrelevant.

My tribunal case was regarding UC not deducting the private pension payments from my Universal credit income, therefore they are then making a take home pay deduction from Universal Credit. 

         This is puzzling, as calcotti posted earlier in the thread:

         "Refer to legislation quoted here
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/75817908/#Comment_75817908
If MR has failed then lodge an appeal to tribunal service. Eventually someone will look at it properly and sort it for you. You are entitled to have the pension contributions taken into account.

You could also refer to this House of Commons guidance
Document Title (parliament.uk), bottom of page 4

Pension contributions
Pension contributions paid into a pension scheme via the claimant’s employer and are being deducted from earnings before tax are disregarded. ..
. If contributions are taken after the earnings have been taxed, the pension contribution is to be deducted from the reported RTI figure.
This may also apply when a claimant pays into a personal pension scheme. 

and

ADM Chapter H3: Earned income - employed earnings (publishing.service.gov.uk)

paragraphs H3170 - H3173  "


    Is it possibly then,an issue with the type of pension scheme, and if it is approved?

    You may wish to request a statement of reasons for that decision from HMCTS  (details of how to do this will be on the decision paperwork).   If, from the S of R, you can then spot that the tribunal has made an error in law - then request the decision is set aside. 
    Did you supply evidence / a statement / verbal evidence?

All I can think now is to see if I can get some kind of legal aid to help me, I'm not sure I can do anything further alone as I have pretty much done everything that everyone else has needed to do on this thread with no luck.  

      As advised, request the statement of reasons from HMCTS  (time limits apply).

     Legal aid has been long gone for social security appeals, so see if your local advice charity / welfare rights organisation has the capacity to help you.

      What does the tribunal decision notice say re grounds for refusing the appeal?


   Once you have the S of R,  look for an error in law

(e.g. Did the tribunal make ad​​equate findings of fact [did they refer to the evidence you sent] or give adequate reasons for its decision).

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/appealing-benefits-decisions-beyond-the-first-tier-tribunal/      

TMel42

Alice_Holt said:

TMel42 said:

Alice_Holt said:

TMel42 said:

NedS said:

TMel42 said:

I must have jinxed everything when I said tax credits have processed my private pension contributions fine before. They now wont process them on my final tax credits claim as it doesn't go through RTI and I have had to do a MR for that also so far. They have now deducted what they deem is an overpayment from my UC claim, all this after I have processed the claim the same way since 2015. It is driving me bonkers - I now am working through an MR for tax credits and a tribunal for UC. It's complete madness!

So your tribunal was against UC for repayment an overpayment of tax credits (caused by incorrect treatment of pension deductions)?

With respect to the UC issue, yes you would lose that fight as UC are required by law to recover any overpayments so you have no legal argument.

It sounds like your battle is with HMRC and tax credits to get the pension contributions correctly recognised and the overpayment reversed/refunded, whether that be directly from HMRC or through UC is kind of irrelevant.

My tribunal case was regarding UC not deducting the private pension payments from my Universal credit income, therefore they are then making a take home pay deduction from Universal Credit. 

         This is puzzling, as calcotti posted earlier in the thread:

         "Refer to legislation quoted here
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/75817908/#Comment_75817908
If MR has failed then lodge an appeal to tribunal service. Eventually someone will look at it properly and sort it for you. You are entitled to have the pension contributions taken into account.

You could also refer to this House of Commons guidance
Document Title (parliament.uk), bottom of page 4

Pension contributions
Pension contributions paid into a pension scheme via the claimant’s employer and are being deducted from earnings before tax are disregarded. ..
. If contributions are taken after the earnings have been taxed, the pension contribution is to be deducted from the reported RTI figure.
This may also apply when a claimant pays into a personal pension scheme. 

and

ADM Chapter H3: Earned income - employed earnings (publishing.service.gov.uk)

paragraphs H3170 - H3173  "


    Is it possibly then,an issue with the type of pension scheme, and if it is approved?

    You may wish to request a statement of reasons for that decision from HMCTS  (details of how to do this will be on the decision paperwork).   If, from the S of R, you can then spot that the tribunal has made an error in law - then request the decision is set aside. 
    Did you supply evidence / a statement / verbal evidence?

All I can think now is to see if I can get some kind of legal aid to help me, I'm not sure I can do anything further alone as I have pretty much done everything that everyone else has needed to do on this thread with no luck.  

      As advised, request the statement of reasons from HMCTS  (time limits apply).

     Legal aid has been long gone for social security appeals, so see if your local advice charity / welfare rights organisation has the capacity to help you.

      What does the tribunal decision notice say re grounds for refusing the appeal?


   Once you have the S of R,  look for an error in law

(e.g. Did the tribunal make ad​​equate findings of fact [did they refer to the evidence you sent] or give adequate reasons for its decision).

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/appealing-benefits-decisions-beyond-the-first-tier-tribunal/      

I will request the statement of reasons. I just feel at a bit of a loss if I'm honest right now.

The decision notice states as follows:

1) The appeal is refused

2) The decision made by the secretary of state on 27/02/21 is confirmed

3) The appellant was entitled to UC for the assessment period 30/01/21-26/02/21. However, the personal pension contributions made by the appellant were correctly considered as earnings by the respondent in calculating the apellant's entitlement. Regulation 55 of the UC Regulations does not apply to these private pension contributions.

4) No party has objected to the matter being decided without a hearing. Having considered the appeal bundle and the requirements of rules 2 and 27 of the tribunal procedure (first tier) (Social emtitlement Chamber) Rules 2008 the tribunal is satisfied that it is able to decide the case in this way.

5) This has been a remote hearing which has been consented to by the parties. The form of a remote hearing was paper: P. A face to face hearing was not held because it was not practicable, and all issues could be determined in a remote hearing on the papers. The tribunal considered a bundle of 39 pages and appendices A & B.

Dazed_and_C0nfused

Maybe its just terminology I'm not used to but this seems very odd?

However, the personal pension contributions made by the appellant were correctly considered as earnings

Alice_Holt

TMel42 said:

Alice_Holt said:

TMel42 said:

Alice_Holt said:

TMel42 said:

NedS said:

TMel42 said:

I must have jinxed everything when I said tax credits have processed my private pension contributions fine before. They now wont process them on my final tax credits claim as it doesn't go through RTI and I have had to do a MR for that also so far. They have now deducted what they deem is an overpayment from my UC claim, all this after I have processed the claim the same way since 2015. It is driving me bonkers - I now am working through an MR for tax credits and a tribunal for UC. It's complete madness!

So your tribunal was against UC for repayment an overpayment of tax credits (caused by incorrect treatment of pension deductions)?

With respect to the UC issue, yes you would lose that fight as UC are required by law to recover any overpayments so you have no legal argument.

It sounds like your battle is with HMRC and tax credits to get the pension contributions correctly recognised and the overpayment reversed/refunded, whether that be directly from HMRC or through UC is kind of irrelevant.

My tribunal case was regarding UC not deducting the private pension payments from my Universal credit income, therefore they are then making a take home pay deduction from Universal Credit. 

         This is puzzling, as calcotti posted earlier in the thread:

         "Refer to legislation quoted here
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/75817908/#Comment_75817908
If MR has failed then lodge an appeal to tribunal service. Eventually someone will look at it properly and sort it for you. You are entitled to have the pension contributions taken into account.

You could also refer to this House of Commons guidance
Document Title (parliament.uk), bottom of page 4

Pension contributions
Pension contributions paid into a pension scheme via the claimant’s employer and are being deducted from earnings before tax are disregarded. ..
. If contributions are taken after the earnings have been taxed, the pension contribution is to be deducted from the reported RTI figure.
This may also apply when a claimant pays into a personal pension scheme. 

and

ADM Chapter H3: Earned income - employed earnings (publishing.service.gov.uk)

paragraphs H3170 - H3173  "


    Is it possibly then,an issue with the type of pension scheme, and if it is approved?

    You may wish to request a statement of reasons for that decision from HMCTS  (details of how to do this will be on the decision paperwork).   If, from the S of R, you can then spot that the tribunal has made an error in law - then request the decision is set aside. 
    Did you supply evidence / a statement / verbal evidence?

All I can think now is to see if I can get some kind of legal aid to help me, I'm not sure I can do anything further alone as I have pretty much done everything that everyone else has needed to do on this thread with no luck.  

      As advised, request the statement of reasons from HMCTS  (time limits apply).

     Legal aid has been long gone for social security appeals, so see if your local advice charity / welfare rights organisation has the capacity to help you.

      What does the tribunal decision notice say re grounds for refusing the appeal?


   Once you have the S of R,  look for an error in law

(e.g. Did the tribunal make ad​​equate findings of fact [did they refer to the evidence you sent] or give adequate reasons for its decision).

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/appealing-benefits-decisions-beyond-the-first-tier-tribunal/      

3) The appellant was entitled to UC for the assessment period 30/01/21-26/02/21. However, the personal pension contributions made by the appellant were correctly considered as earnings by the respondent in calculating the apellant's entitlement. Regulation 55 of the UC Regulations does not apply to these private pension contributions.

           Strange.  

          Here is Regulation 55   -  https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/376/regulation/55/made

        and Para 5 - "In calculating the amount of a person’s employed earnings in respect of an assessment period, there are to be deducted from the amount of general earnings or benefits specified in paragraphs (2) to (4)—

(a)   any relievable pension contributions made by the person in that period;...."

  There is no distinction between "private pension contributions", and an employers scheme AFAIK.   See calcotti's and others earlier posts and DWP DM guidance.

       Has the one person tribunal made an simple error in citing  "these private pension contributions" ?


 In the appeal paperwork referred to (the numbered 39 pages plus Appendix A & B - which should have been sent to you pre hearing):

     Are your submission / papers included; and

    What is the main DWP argument for not deducting these pension contributions?

steely333

Paragraph 3 is confusing.
I would double check your particular pension falls into there guidelines.

If worse case scenario it is outside there guidelines for the correct type of pension, although what could be considered outside i dont now?
then up your contributions through your RTI into your other work pension,?

TMel42

My personal pension is totally within the realms of admissable pensions. Its a fidelity pension and has been receiving tax relief on the pension contributions since it was opened. 

The initial response that it was my choice to put the payment in to my personal pension plan, I presume because of the value of the contributions each month. If I made these payments from my work pension I presume they would then argue that it is deprivation of income.

Alice_Holt

Dazed_and_C0nfused said:

Maybe its just terminology I'm not used to but this seems very odd?

However, the personal pension contributions made by the appellant were correctly considered as earnings

However, the personal pension contributions made by the appellant were correctly considered as earnings    

      That seemed odd to me, too.

      Since the tribunal were looking at if those contributions should be deducted from earnings under UC regs.

    
     Could be an misunderstanding of terminology between tribunal clerk and tribunal judge, not then picked up by the judge - but still very odd.

    Well worth getting the judge's S of A, and looking further at it.

calcotti

You may want to request a record of proceedings as well as the statement of reasons.

NedS

TMel42 said:

I will request the statement of reasons. I just feel at a bit of a loss if I'm honest right now.

The decision notice states as follows:

1) The appeal is refused

2) The decision made by the secretary of state on 27/02/21 is confirmed

3) The appellant was entitled to UC for the assessment period 30/01/21-26/02/21. However, the personal pension contributions made by the appellant were correctly considered as earnings by the respondent in calculating the apellant's entitlement. Regulation 55 of the UC Regulations does not apply to these private pension contributions.

4) No party has objected to the matter being decided without a hearing. Having considered the appeal bundle and the requirements of rules 2 and 27 of the tribunal procedure (first tier) (Social emtitlement Chamber) Rules 2008 the tribunal is satisfied that it is able to decide the case in this way.

5) This has been a remote hearing which has been consented to by the parties. The form of a remote hearing was paper: P. A face to face hearing was not held because it was not practicable, and all issues could be determined in a remote hearing on the papers. The tribunal considered a bundle of 39 pages and appendices A & B.

Above, in bold, is just wrong. I would ask the court to explain why they think the regulations, as clearly written, do not apply to you.

I have no idea where you would go from here, to try to get this overturned.

Did you not attend the appeal and present your case, highlighting the regulations that apply?