Universal credit and private pension contributions

Dazed_and_C0nfused

Do you mean you contribute to two pensions or you contribute to one and receive income from the other?

What was the grounds for refusal?

NedS

TMel42 said:

I must have jinxed everything when I said tax credits have processed my private pension contributions fine before. They now wont process them on my final tax credits claim as it doesn't go through RTI and I have had to do a MR for that also so far. They have now deducted what they deem is an overpayment from my UC claim, all this after I have processed the claim the same way since 2015. It is driving me bonkers - I now am working through an MR for tax credits and a tribunal for UC. It's complete madness!

So your tribunal was against UC for repayment an overpayment of tax credits (caused by incorrect treatment of pension deductions)?

With respect to the UC issue, yes you would lose that fight as UC are required by law to recover any overpayments so you have no legal argument.

It sounds like your battle is with HMRC and tax credits to get the pension contributions correctly recognised and the overpayment reversed/refunded, whether that be directly from HMRC or through UC is kind of irrelevant.

steely333

TMel42 said:

Just received post regarding my case - they have refused at tribunal. Not sure where to go with this now or even bother. 

I’m wondering if it is an issue now that I have a private pension and a work pension. The work pension was started quite a few years after the private pension when it became a regulation of workplaces 

Just for information you mention 2 pensions, i dont think it matters as i have 2 pensions one was started with previous employer and second through another employer, i contribute through my RTI into one and through personal contributions into my second both are disregarded as the law states. Are private/personal pensions not the same as workplace ones like peoples or nest? If they are then cant you just up your RTI from work into your pension.?

TMel42

Dazed_and_C0nfused said:

Do you mean you contribute to two pensions or you contribute to one and receive income from the other?

What was the grounds for refusal?

I have two pensions I contribute to. A workplace pension that is a small amount and then my private pension which I started in 2015 which is a much larger amount. They have refused on the grounds that they say the private pension contributions are correctly considered as earnings. 

TMel42

NedS said:

TMel42 said:

I must have jinxed everything when I said tax credits have processed my private pension contributions fine before. They now wont process them on my final tax credits claim as it doesn't go through RTI and I have had to do a MR for that also so far. They have now deducted what they deem is an overpayment from my UC claim, all this after I have processed the claim the same way since 2015. It is driving me bonkers - I now am working through an MR for tax credits and a tribunal for UC. It's complete madness!

So your tribunal was against UC for repayment an overpayment of tax credits (caused by incorrect treatment of pension deductions)?

With respect to the UC issue, yes you would lose that fight as UC are required by law to recover any overpayments so you have no legal argument.

It sounds like your battle is with HMRC and tax credits to get the pension contributions correctly recognised and the overpayment reversed/refunded, whether that be directly from HMRC or through UC is kind of irrelevant.

No i have two issues happening really. My tribunal case was regarding UC not deducting the private pension payments from my Universal credit income, therefore they are then making a take home pay deduction from Universal Credit. 

The issue with Tax Credits started after my original issue, in that I gave final figures to Tax Credits and they refused to take the private pension into consideration and said I owed them money back. I raised a Mandatory Reconsideration for this directly with TC but haven't received anything back (I haven't chased either as been waiting on the outcome of the tribunal for UC). 

I have had these private pension payments deducted from my income value each year with no issue since 2015, until this year. 

RobinHill

A bit odd and bit. From what I recall the UC directives and quite clear ...

It is the law ...

   https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/2006/made ... Tax Credits but I understand the same applies for UC.

   (7) In calculating income under this Part there shall be deducted the amount of—

   611A of that Act(24);

   (iii)a personal pension scheme, approved under Chapter 4 of that Part 14 of that Act.

Trusting the contributions to be compliant then they should be deducted for the purpose of income in order to calculate any UC award.

TMel42

steely333 said:

TMel42 said:

Just received post regarding my case - they have refused at tribunal. Not sure where to go with this now or even bother. 

I’m wondering if it is an issue now that I have a private pension and a work pension. The work pension was started quite a few years after the private pension when it became a regulation of workplaces 

Just for information you mention 2 pensions, i dont think it matters as i have 2 pensions one was started with previous employer and second through another employer, i contribute through my RTI into one and through personal contributions into my second both are disregarded as the law states. Are private/personal pensions not the same as workplace ones like peoples or nest? If they are then cant you just up your RTI from work into your pension.?

Thank you for that info, I pay nearly half of my wage into the private pension which is much better than the nest pension I suppose ( not that up to speed on them),due to personal circumstances I would actually be worse off if I worked and didn't put money into a pension. I am so fed up with it all - I have never wanted to not work but it's starting to look like the best option is if I didn't work at all. There is no way I can work full time with my circumstances, so working part time and putting money into a pension for myself and my dependants future.

Dazed_and_C0nfused

TMel42 said:

Dazed_and_C0nfused said:

Do you mean you contribute to two pensions or you contribute to one and receive income from the other?

What was the grounds for refusal?

I have two pensions I contribute to. A workplace pension that is a small amount and then my private pension which I started in 2015 which is a much larger amount. They have refused on the grounds that they say the private pension contributions are correctly considered as earnings. 

Are you sure you haven't confused DWP??

Have you told them you have pension income?

TMel42

Dazed_and_C0nfused said:

TMel42 said:

Dazed_and_C0nfused said:

Do you mean you contribute to two pensions or you contribute to one and receive income from the other?

What was the grounds for refusal?

I have two pensions I contribute to. A workplace pension that is a small amount and then my private pension which I started in 2015 which is a much larger amount. They have refused on the grounds that they say the private pension contributions are correctly considered as earnings. 

Are you sure you haven't confused DWP??

Have you told them you have pension income?

I think the initial person from UC that I discussed the issue with over the notes and during a phone call may have confused them as he kept stating about pension income and rule 55 not be relevant. That was in his notes not mine. I quoted the regulations as per this thread stating that it is pension contributions. It's all such a mess.

Alice_Holt

TMel42 said:

NedS said:

TMel42 said:

I must have jinxed everything when I said tax credits have processed my private pension contributions fine before. They now wont process them on my final tax credits claim as it doesn't go through RTI and I have had to do a MR for that also so far. They have now deducted what they deem is an overpayment from my UC claim, all this after I have processed the claim the same way since 2015. It is driving me bonkers - I now am working through an MR for tax credits and a tribunal for UC. It's complete madness!

So your tribunal was against UC for repayment an overpayment of tax credits (caused by incorrect treatment of pension deductions)?

With respect to the UC issue, yes you would lose that fight as UC are required by law to recover any overpayments so you have no legal argument.

It sounds like your battle is with HMRC and tax credits to get the pension contributions correctly recognised and the overpayment reversed/refunded, whether that be directly from HMRC or through UC is kind of irrelevant.

My tribunal case was regarding UC not deducting the private pension payments from my Universal credit income, therefore they are then making a take home pay deduction from Universal Credit. 

         This is puzzling, as calcotti posted earlier in the thread:

         "Refer to legislation quoted here
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/75817908/#Comment_75817908
If MR has failed then lodge an appeal to tribunal service. Eventually someone will look at it properly and sort it for you. You are entitled to have the pension contributions taken into account.

You could also refer to this House of Commons guidance
Document Title (parliament.uk), bottom of page 4

Pension contributions
Pension contributions paid into a pension scheme via the claimant’s employer and are being deducted from earnings before tax are disregarded. ..
. If contributions are taken after the earnings have been taxed, the pension contribution is to be deducted from the reported RTI figure.
This may also apply when a claimant pays into a personal pension scheme. 

and

ADM Chapter H3: Earned income - employed earnings (publishing.service.gov.uk)

paragraphs H3170 - H3173  "


    Is it possibly then,an issue with the type of pension scheme, and if it is registered ?
    Where the tribunal clear that the payments came from yourself?

    You may wish to request a statement of reasons for that decision from HMCTS  (details of how to do this will be on the decision paperwork).   If, from the S of R, you can then spot that the tribunal has made an error in law - then request the decision is set aside. 
    Did you supply evidence / a statement / verbal evidence?