Hastings cancelled Ford car insurance / AXA to follow suit for Peugeot?

makara

A bit complicated...please bear with me -

I was unaware that I needed to declare ALL car claims (which are all non-fault by the way...) to BOTH sets of insurers for BOTH my cars.

When I was with E-sure in November 2016, I had a non-fault write-off claim on a Peugeot car - which was paid out by the other party, and I then had the remainder of the Insurance for the year transferred by E-sure to my replacement (very similar) newer Peugeot car - for a very small increase. E-sure were great, by the way.

Around the same time as that accident (about 3 days before I think) I had JUST moved to "Hastings" for my other car (a Ford), and have been insuring it with them now for a couple of years - and had no claims with them - until a non-fault accident in January 2019

- and then again another non-fault accident happened to the Ford (1st May 2019).

Unfortunately right after that someone else just (10th May 2019) hit my newer Peugeot - now insured by "AXA" (as I left E-sure).

When I was quizzed by the "AXA" claims guy if I had any other accidents to declare, I wasn't sure if I should tell him about the two incidents involving the Ford, but did so.

He told me I should have declared both Ford car incidents to "AXA" when they happened - and while he would get the ball rolling on my brand new claim for the Peugeot non-fault accident, he would have to get AXA's "indemnity team" involved to take a decision on the validity of my policy.

He also told me I would need to inform "Hastings" of the Peugeot write-off in November 2016 - and the 10th May 2019 newer Peugeot claim I had just put in.

I followed his advice, and the girl at Hastings went away for a long time, and came back to tell me their under-writer "Advantage" were CANCELLING my Ford's insurance, and that none of their other under-writers would give me insurance either - not because of the 10th May 2019 Peugeot incident - but because of the earlier Peugeot incident of November 2016.

She said they will give me 7 days cover to find a new insurer.

They will also retain £45 as a Cancellation fee - and then the remaining pro-rata balance of £42.xx from my £178 annual premium will be refunded.


I am now concerned "AXA" might also follow suit.

The other issue is - for the January 2019 Ford accident - I noticed after Hastings sub-contracted the repairs procedure to "Auxillis", who then chose a local "approved garage" - my perfect rear Ford badge had been deliberately swapped for a manky one - and Auxillis agreed from the "before" and "after" photos it wasn't the same badge - and they had asked the approved repairer to get in touch with me...and of course no one has come back to me.

My question/s at the end of all this are -

A) I guess I am at fault for not realising I should have "cross-declared" to both insurers for all the 4 non-fault accidents to both cars (although in my defence TWO of those happened just this month!) - am I now going to have to declare "I have had insurance cancelled" on all my future attempts to get car insurance?

Will I NOT now be able to recover the £175 Excess that we paid for the non-fault (provable by our CCTV) Ford accident of January 2019? Perhaps I should ask Hastings about that...?

C) Should I use the naughty Ford badge swap issue to hold Hastings to ransom, for giving me an approved repairer who then effectively stole something from my car?

Sorry for the long post!

P.S. Having gone through MSE's forums prior to posting the above...Hastings seem to have been in quite a bit of trouble for cancelling customers' policies (although in my case I DID get an E-mail notification of this right after I was told of the cancellation on the phone...) - but is it worth batting things back to Hastings, to see if they can persuade the under-writers to reverse their cancellation decision?

*IMPORTANT ADDITION BELOW*

++++++++

IMPORTANT EDIT - just looked at my online portal for Hastings, and they've given *this* reason for the cancellation -


"We are unable to continue cover due to the reason CHANGE OF VEHICLE"


- are Hastings / Advantage deliberately being kind to me by giving that "reason"...? And is it something I should accept as a Gift Horse if future insurers ask me WHY I had my insurance cancelled by them..??

++++++++

kelevraz

makara wrote: »

A bit complicated...please bear with me -

I was unaware that I needed to declare ALL car claims (which are all non-fault by the way...) to BOTH sets of insurers for BOTH my cars.

When I was with E-sure in November 2016, I had a non-fault write-off claim on a Peugeot car - which was paid out by the other party, and I then had the remainder of the Insurance for the year transferred by E-sure to my replacement (very similar) newer Peugeot car - for a very small increase. E-sure were great, by the way.

Around the same time as that accident (about 3 days before I think) I had JUST moved to "Hastings" for my other car (a Ford), and have been insuring it with them now for a couple of years - and had no claims with them - until a non-fault accident in January 2019

- and then again another non-fault accident happened to the Ford (1st May 2019).

Unfortunately right after that someone else just (10th May 2019) hit my newer Peugeot - now insured by "AXA" (as I left E-sure).

When I was quizzed by the "AXA" claims guy if I had any other accidents to declare, I wasn't sure if I should tell him about the two incidents involving the Ford, but did so.

He told me I should have declared both Ford car incidents to "AXA" when they happened - and while he would get the ball rolling on my brand new claim for the Peugeot non-fault accident, he would have to get AXA's "indemnity team" involved to take a decision on the validity of my policy.

He also told me I would need to inform "Hastings" of the Peugeot write-off in November 2016 - and the 10th May 2019 newer Peugeot claim I had just put in.

I followed his advice, and the girl at Hastings went away for a long time, and came back to tell me their under-writer "Advantage" were CANCELLING my Ford's insurance, and that none of their other under-writers would give me insurance either - not because of the 10th May 2019 Peugeot incident - but because of the earlier Peugeot incident of November 2016.

She said they will give me 7 days cover to find a new insurer.

They will also retain £45 as a Cancellation fee - and then the remaining pro-rata balance of £42.xx from my £178 annual premium will be refunded.


I am now concerned "AXA" might also follow suit.

The other issue is - for the January 2019 Ford accident - I noticed after Hastings sub-contracted the repairs procedure to "Auxillis", who then chose a local "approved garage" - my perfect rear Ford badge had been deliberately swapped for a manky one - and Auxillis agreed from the "before" and "after" photos it wasn't the same badge - and they had asked the approved repairer to get in touch with me...and of course no one has come back to me.

My question/s at the end of all this are -

A) I guess I am at fault for not realising I should have "cross-declared" to both insurers for all the 4 non-fault accidents to both cars (although in my defence TWO of those happened just this month!) - am I now going to have to declare "I have had insurance cancelled" on all my future attempts to get car insurance?

Will I NOT now be able to recover the £175 Excess that we paid for the non-fault (provable by our CCTV) Ford accident of January 2019? Perhaps I should ask Hastings about that...?

C) Should I use the naughty Ford badge swap issue to hold Hastings to ransom, for giving me an approved repairer who then effectively stole something from my car?

Sorry for the long post!

P.S. Having gone through MSE's forums prior to posting the above...Hastings seem to have been in quite a bit of trouble for cancelling customers' policies (although in my case I DID get an E-mail notification of this right after I was told of the cancellation on the phone...) - but is it worth batting things back to Hastings, to see if they can persuade the under-writers to reverse their cancellation decision?

*IMPORTANT ADDITION BELOW*

++++++++

IMPORTANT EDIT - just looked at my online portal for Hastings, and they've given *this* reason for the cancellation -


"We are unable to continue cover due to the reason CHANGE OF VEHICLE"


- are Hastings / Advantage deliberately being kind to me by giving that "reason"...? And is it something I should accept as a Gift Horse if future insurers ask me WHY I had my insurance cancelled by them..??

++++++++

Right lol

a) Yes, you are at fault for not declaring all of your accidents, to put it simply. And most insurers will definitely think twice about insuring someone who has four claims period, as it simply makes you a much higher risk

In theory, any time that your policy is cancelled by the underwriter, you should be declaring it, with that being said, in my experience with insurers, the cancellations they want to know about are related to things like non payment and issues with disclosure (misrepresentation).

The fact that Hastings have 'said' they've cancelled your policy because of a 'change in vehicle', DOES seem somewhat of a easy out... As if you tell an insurer your policy was cancelled because you changed to a vehicle that your underwriter wouldn't cover, its unlikely they will care.. Tell them your policy was cancelled because of undeclared claims, and its a totally different story.

In practicality, if Hastings have given you 'that' excuse, which you can document, i'd take it and run with it. Your other option is to call them up and 'ask' them 'exactly' why the policy has been cancelled.

Also, as you've said, Hastings can be pretty sucky. If i had to guess, they're just being lazy.. cancelling someones policy for non-disclosure is much more of a minefield than cancelling for an underwriting decline due to a 'change of vehicle'. So i'd not call it being deliberately nice, as much as i'd just call it laziness from Hastings

b) Whether the incident goes down as non-fault/fault will depend on the insurers and how they've view the incident. If you've already paid your excess, then the only way you're going to get it back is if the third party insurer accepts full liability, THEN your insurer will deem it as a non-fault on your behalf, and your excess will be returned. The assumption is that you told your insurer you wanted to claim, so they made you pay the excess so they could get on with fixing your car.

By the sounds of it, your policy has been cancelled on a pro-rata basis. Which means that your insurer will deal with the claim as-if nothing was wrong. So getting your excess back IF the claim is closed as a non-fault shouldn't be a problem.

C) when you say 'hold to ransom' - given the ultimate uncertainty over why exactly your policy has been cancelled (non disclosure / change of vehicle..) - is that really a fight you want to pick 'in the way' you've mentioned? IF you go back on a fighting tone and ask them to look into whats happened because your 'holding them to random', they could very well come back and say sorry, we'll pay for your badge.. BUT also, we've realised we gave you the wrong reason for cancellation, we actually cancelled because you failed to disclose, not because of a change of vehicle - d'oh

I'd first go back to the garage that switched the badge, and pick a fight with them, if you have correspondence that effectively confirms they've done something wrong, show this to them. See what they say and take it from there.

To your PS - Again, the issue in your case is the uncertainty over why the policy has been cancelled. To me, it looks like this was a cancellation for non-disclosure

To put it simply, your insurer will only cancel your policy for non-disclosure if you've failed to disclose at inception. So the simple question to ask yourself as far your AXA policy is this:

When you took out your policy with AXA - how many claims/incidents did you have, and how many did you disclose? regardless of fault?

If you find that you had more than you disclosed, and AXA don't yet know about them, then yes, its possible that AXA will follow suit - if they randomly check the CUE database, or you have an accident and need to claim - they may decide to cancel/void your policy at that moment

makara

Many thanks for your detailed reply - please see my replies pre-fixed with ***

kelevraz wrote: »

In practicality, if Hastings have given you 'that' excuse, which you can document, i'd take it and run with it. Your other option is to call them up and 'ask' them 'exactly' why the policy has been cancelled.


*** In that case I will do the former...you make an excellent point that it's "documented", which it is - so it's "provable"



b) Whether the incident goes down as non-fault/fault will depend on the insurers and how they've view the incident. If you've already paid your excess, then the only way you're going to get it back is if the third party insurer accepts full liability, THEN your insurer will deem it as a non-fault on your behalf, and your excess will be returned. The assumption is that you told your insurer you wanted to claim, so they made you pay the excess so they could get on with fixing your car.

By the sounds of it, your policy has been cancelled on a pro-rata basis. Which means that your insurer will deal with the claim as-if nothing was wrong. So getting your excess back IF the claim is closed as a non-fault shouldn't be a problem.



*** Good to know, and that's what I thought. Although a few weeks ago, Hastings did tell me that if I didn't want to wait for them to re-claim the Excess on my behalf, then it might be quicker to re-claim it MYSELF if I get in touch with the 3rd-party's insurers , and pass them the CCTV proof of their client being responsible - but as long as Hastings will honour re-claiming it, I might as well leave it to them to do the work now.


C) when you say 'hold to ransom' - given the ultimate uncertainty over why exactly your policy has been cancelled (non disclosure / change of vehicle..) - is that really a fight you want to pick 'in the way' you've mentioned?


*** Good point :-)


I'd first go back to the garage that switched the badge, and pick a fight with them, if you have correspondence that effectively confirms they've done something wrong, show this to them. See what they say and take it from there.


*** OK, will do, as there are photos which prove the "before" and "after" - although I might go through "Auxillis", the company that Hastings sub-contract to, as they were the ones who found me this "approved garage" - and that way I am not picking a fight with Hastings.

Thanks again, this is really helpful.

kelevraz

Its worth mentioning this by the way (and this would only apply if an insurer that you take a new policy with, were to get confirmation from Hastings that your policy was cancelled because of non-disclosure, and not vehicle change, as they documented to you. Although, in that situation, this would mean you'd likely win a complaint against Hastings,)

Unlike claims, there's no set period for how long you have to declare a cancelled policy. The flip side to this is that, theres no large database like CUE, that keeps track of who's had a policy cancelled. So when an insurer asks you if you've ever had a policy cancelled, unlike being able to check CUE, they are depending COMPLETELY on you being honest about it (There are fraud databases but thats a different thing all together)

Insurers tend to base their actions when it comes to cancellations on what they think would happen if it went to the FOS (financial ombudsman service), so consider this:

If in the future, you find yourself in a situation where a new insurer wants to cancel or void your policy for not declaring that a previous policy was cancelled policy BECAUSE of non-disclosure and NOT a change of vehicle, then what hasting put in 'writing', POSSIBLY wouldn't matter as much as what you were told on the phone.. for example:

If you had to raise a complaint to the FOS following a cancelled policy, and your defence was 'well, hastings wrote that the reason my policy was cancelled was because i changed vehicle, so why would i tell an insurer that it was cancelled for non disclosure'

The FOS's response would LIKELY be - 'but you KNEW that the reason your policy was cancelled was for non disclosure, as you know, there was no change of vehicle, so by taking the excuse that hastings have given you, KNOWING that it was wrong, you've not been honest with your new insurer'.

As far as the badge, personally, i'd take the argument FIRST to the garage and threaten them with legal/police action, as they've effectively STOLEN something from you. The cost of replacing your ford badge, probably isn't worth the haggle theyll have to go through if they have police knocking on their door with proof that they've stolen from you.. in THEORY, if the police were to get involved and someone were to be prosecuted for 'theft', it would be the garage themselves, not auxillis or the insurer, and if that were to happen, they'd probably find themselves in a position where they lose their contract with the insurer

makara

Thanks again - my replies pre-fixed by ***

kelevraz wrote: »

theres no large database like CUE, that keeps track of who's had a policy cancelled


*** I was unaware of this. That REALLY surprises me. But wouldn't the fact that Hastings have cancelled my policy automatically mean that this cancellation "event" is added to my insurance history on SOME database or other?

Or would only Hastings keep an (internal) record of it (and possibly their under-writer/s might do)?


As far as the badge, personally, i'd take the argument FIRST to the garage and threaten them with legal/police action, as they've effectively STOLEN something from you. The cost of replacing your ford badge, probably isn't worth the haggle theyll have to go through if they have police knocking on their door with proof that they've stolen from you.. in THEORY, if the police were to get involved and someone were to be prosecuted for 'theft', it would be the garage themselves, not auxillis or the insurer, and if that were to happen, they'd probably find themselves in a position where they lose their contract with the insurer



*** The reason I mentioned Auxillis is when I initially complained to Hastings, they were none too happy about this, as it effectively tarnishes their reputation (as the offending garage is listed on their "approved" list) - and they passed me through to Auxillis. It was Auxillis who then E-mailed me back to say they had checked the photos of the "before" that the offending garage had taken of the rear of my car (including the badge) - and compared those to my "after" photo of the manky badge - and told me they had told the Garage to contact me directly.

So from that perspective I am thinking of E-mailing Auxillis back to let them know the Garage hasn't even bothered trying to get in touch with me - which in effect may make Auxillis (rather than Hastings) end their contract with them.

But I do take your point about scaring the garage with Police action threat, etc.

makara

Another question -

I am thinking of cancelling the most recent two non-fault claims (both in May 2019 - one on the Ford - the other on the Peugeot), as no repairs etc have been undertaken YET.

I have asked Hastings about whether I would incur any penalties, and they have said NO - but as their sub-contractor "Auxillis" had sent out an Estimator from a local approved garage, then I would need to also ask Auxillis if they will hit me with any penalties (even if it's just cost of petrol for the Estimator coming out to my house to photograph my Ford's newer damage).

I will ask "Axa" the same thing tomorrow about the very recent May 2019 Peugeot non-fault (again caught on CCTV) accident - and ask if there will be any penalties for NOT wanting to go ahead with it.

I understand this in effect might mean "Notification only" type claims

- so will two fully-made claims (November 2016 and January 2019) plus two "Notification only" claims (both in May 2019) probably mean I get cheaper quotes...as opposed to declaring four fully-made claims?

The reason I ask is that the two May incidents while annoying (obviously) were not as bad as the earlier two incidents - and we are willing (if possible) to "let those go".

kelevraz

No thats fair enough, if Hastings have already made it clear they werent very happy about this, then let them sort it out for you. If this complaint went to the FOS, it would be against Hastings and they would get slaughtered, so proceed with dealing with it from 'that side'

RE the cancelled policy - you'd be surprised how many people it surprises lol, but yes, there is no large external database that keeps track of who has had a policy cancelled. There are databases, like CIFAS & SIRA - where you can be placed if you've been suspected / confirmed doing fraud (you can very easily land on one of these if your insurer cancels your policy due to non-disclosure, as normally non-disclosure leads to cheaper premiums, so 'fraud' essentially)

But other than that, no, its all kept internal. The ONLY way for an insurer to find out if a previous policy has been cancelled, is to get in contact with an old insurer and get confirmation of this. Unfortunately, i think this is the reason that insurers still expect (or hope..) you to be honest about having a policy cancelled even if it was 10 years ago, where-as claims don't need to be disclosed after around 5

The last insurer i worked at is one of the FEW (and i mean literally few like 3/4) insurers that only asks you to disclose a cancelled policy in the last X years, as they have understood that it can be quite unfair to penalise someone 'forever' for having a policy cancelled

kelevraz

makara wrote: »

Another question -

I am thinking of cancelling the most recent two non-fault claims (both in May 2019 - one on the Ford - the other on the Peugeot), as no repairs etc have been undertaken YET.

I have asked Hastings about whether I would incur any penalties, and they have said NO - but as their sub-contractor "Auxillis" had sent out an Estimator from a local approved garage, then I would need to also ask Auxillis if they will hit me with any penalties (even if it's just cost of petrol for the Estimator coming out to my house to photograph my Ford's newer damage).

I will ask "Axa" the same thing tomorrow about the very recent May 2019 Peugeot non-fault (again caught on CCTV) accident - and ask if there will be any penalties for NOT wanting to go ahead with it.

I understand this in effect might mean "Notification only" type claims

- so will two fully-made claims (November 2016 and January 2019) plus two "Notification only" claims (both in May 2019) probably mean I get cheaper quotes...as opposed to declaring four fully-made claims?

The reason I ask is that the two May incidents while annoying (obviously) were not as bad as the earlier two incidents - and we are willing (if possible) to "let those go".

And here lays another problem that i (and many) have with insurance.. the problem is, what one underwriter see's isnt what another see's.

One of the insurers ive worked for (and many others) will treat a 'notification only' in the exact same way as they treat a 'nonfault'.

The idea of nonfault/fault (As you may or may not know) is really more about what the claim COST and what was recovered. But if you have a notification against your record, some underwriters will still deem this as a non-fault incident.

For instance, i know insurers that will void a policy if you have not disclosed 3 'notification only' incidents that have happened within the last 36 months (if they involved a third party, so another human), regardless of whether you made a claim or not, as this simply does not fit their risk apetite.

So unfortunately, there's no way to really tell how it will affect you.. again, it can come down to what your actually ASKED. some insurers ask about CLAIMS youve made, others ask about INCIDENTS. and theres a large difference between the two

What i would say though, is that for alot of insurers, in reality, your less likely to face haggle for 'notification only' claims with no payout, than you are with non-fault claims with a payout

Jumblebumble

kelevraz wrote: »

Insurers tend to base their actions when it comes to cancellations on what they think would happen if it went to the FOS (financial ombudsman service), so consider this:

If in the future, you find yourself in a situation where a new insurer wants to cancel or void your policy for not declaring that a previous policy was cancelled policy BECAUSE of non-disclosure and NOT a change of vehicle, then what hasting put in 'writing', POSSIBLY wouldn't matter as much as what you were told on the phone.. for example:

If you had to raise a complaint to the FOS following a cancelled policy, and your defence was 'well, hastings wrote that the reason my policy was cancelled was because i changed vehicle, so why would i tell an insurer that it was cancelled for non disclosure'

The FOS's response would LIKELY be - 'but you KNEW that the reason your policy was cancelled was for non disclosure, as you know, there was no change of vehicle, so by taking the excuse that hastings have given you, KNOWING that it was wrong, you've not been honest with your new insurer'.

And my response would be that clearly the person on the phone had misunderstood the reason for cancellation which I believed had been subsequently corrected when the email was sent.
I would be astounded if anyone ever subsequently contradicted the information that is now on Hastings records let alone creating a situation that requires the ombudsman to adjudicate.
Or all OP has to do is to not remember the phone conversation on the basis he/she does not need to as he/she has had the final position later clarified in an email.
IANAL but you must keep that email
PS I always try and insist that people confirm what they have said in a phone call in an email as even the most stupid person is likely to think a bit more before commiting in writing.

Jumblebumble

makara

kelevraz wrote: »

What i would say though, is that for alot of insurers, in reality, your less likely to face haggle for 'notification only' claims with no payout, than you are with non-fault claims with a payout

Thanks a ton - I will speak to "Axa" tomorrow, and ask them about possibly wanting to cancel the latest incident repairs (and hopefully also find out from them if THEY are going to cancel my insurance / or not).

makara

Jumblebumble wrote: »

And my response would be that clearly the person on the phone had misunderstood the reason for cancellation which I believed had been subsequently corrected when the email was sent.

I would be astounded if anyone ever subsequently contradicted the information that is now on Hastings records let alone creating a situation that requires the ombudsman to adjudicate.

Or all OP has to do is to not remember the phone conversation on the basis he/she does not need to as he/she has had the final position later clarified in an email

Hadn't thought of that...that the fact that the person I spoke to at Hastings told me that "X" was the reason my insurance was cancelled, whereas the reason given on my online Portal was "Y" meant that person (not me nor the person uploading the letter on my portal) was the confused one.

As for me "not remembering" the phone conversation - isn't that why Insurance companies record all phone conversations? So that if you say "I don't remember" or "I disagree", they can play back the recording to you / to the FOS / to your new insurer?

Although that said I do see your point about Hastings not wanting to get in a situation where they will effectively end up "rocking their own boat" if they start internally contradicting themselves :-)