PCN from Private security for parking not in a bay

3kisses

My apologies for asking this is it is already on the forum - I've been reading through the Newbie threads etc but can't see any posts about PCN for parking outside a bay / in a non-bay area.

As the Keeper of the vehicle I have received a letter from a private member of BPA for parking in a Retail Park in an area which was not a bay. The PCN has the date and time of the event, a photo of my car (2 shots from a handheld camera) & you can see that there are no bay markings where the car is parked. You also can't see a sign with their warnings in immediate sight. I went back today to look for a sign it is not in this area but about 20 metres away (they are spread about the retail park Car park) and is side on, so you wouldn't be reading it as you drove past. The sign does mention 'Park within marked bays only' in relatively big letters (but not the biggest on the sign & the driver wouldn't see it driving by it as they would be facing forward & moving).

The smallest font size has details about getting vehicle keeper details from the DVLA, 'if you park on this private land contravening the above conditions you are contractually obliged to pay the sum of £80 within 28 days (reduced to £35 if paid within 14 days)' and 'By parking on this private land you consent to your data being collected & processed for the purpose of Cpark management & enforcement of the T&Cs' and 'Data may be shared with the DVLA and debt collection agencies to pursue unpaid charges' and 'our privacy policy is on website'


The PCN itself says 'Payment has not been received & is therefore due' even though no windscreen ticket issued & this is my 1st letter as the keeper of the vehicle.

They state that the driver is required to pay the charge & goes on to say that as they don't know the name & address of the driver I 'should tell us the name & address of the driver & pass on the notice' and I am 'warned that if after 29 days ..it hasn't been paid' & 'we don't know the full name & current address of the driver, we have the right to recover any unpaid part of the parking charge from you'

No mention of POFA 2012 by name.

They say as the Keeper of the vehicle, I have to appeal to them at an email address & if unsuccessful they give POPLA number.

As this is about parking not in a bay, do I have right to contest? Most of the forum posts are about / use templates about staying too long / parking in incorrect bays, so I wasn't sure which things I could quote apart from signage font size for some of the issues?

Thanks in advance for your help!:A

Egbert_Nobacon

Firstly edit your post immediately, there are only 2 players in this scenario.
They are the DRIVER on the day and the KEEPER who has received the PCN.

Send the BLUE template appeal from the NEWBIES - unaltered.
This will not identify the driver and may make the PPC less likely to pursue you as they will realise that you are receiving forum help.

Politely complain to any of the retailers you visited asking them to get this cancelled.

The_Deep

Read this, some of it may be useful

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5972164/parking-eye-signs-oxford-road-reading

They are obviously trying to scam you so complain to your MP.

Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, and persistent offenders denied access. Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers.

Until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted

Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.

Coupon-mad

No mention of POFA 2012 by name.

Who says it needs to? The Act doesn't require that.

What's the full wording, including the bit in your ellipsis?

'warned that if after 29 days...it hasn't been paid'

3kisses

What's the full wording, including the bit in your ellipsis?[/QUOTE]


'You are warned that if after 29 days from the date given (which is presumed to be the 2nd working date after the issue date) the Parking charge has not been paid in full & we don't know the name of the & address of the driver, we have the right to recover any unpaid part of the Parking charge from you. If you provide an incorrect address we will pursue you for any Parking Charge amount that remains unpaid. Should you identify someone who isn't the driver / denies they were we will pursue you for any parking charge amount that remains unpaid. Further info on how to pay and right to appeal is overleaf'

Coupon-mad

(which is presumed to be the 2nd working date after the issue date)

No, in law it most certainly is not. Compare that to the POFA para 8(2)f if it was a windscreen PCN first, or 9(2)f if no windscreen PCN.

Which PPC makes that blooper? Is this not VCS or Excel, who are IPC, not BPA?

3kisses

Coupon-mad wrote: »

No, in law it most certainly is not. Compare that to the POFA para 8(2)f if it was a windscreen PCN first, or 9(2)f if no windscreen PCN.

Which PPC makes that blooper? Is this not VCS or Excel, who are IPC, not BPA?

It is from SR Security services who are a member of BPA.


At the start it says:
"On the date & times shown your vehicle entered and departed the car park at xx. The signage, which is clearly displayed at the entrance to and throughout the car park states that it is private land and the car park is managed by xxx and parking tariffs apply or a parking charge will be incurred along with other terms and conditions of the car park by which those who park in the car park are bound"


The next paragraph unlike the 1st, then implies that it was ME parking? (although later it discusses the keeper being liable for the charge:


"By parking outside a marked bay you have incurred this charge. Payment for this charge has not been received and is therefore due to xx (as the creditor)"


There has been no evidence of a 1st warning / window sticker that would cause a payment to be made? This letter is the 1st indication.

Coupon-mad

None of the above is wrong wording but the bit in brackets is.

Does the PCN refer to having served a PCN to the driver, or not?

What was the gap between the parking event and when you RECEIVED the NTK (no not the date on it).

3kisses

Coupon-mad wrote: »

None of the above is wrong wording but the bit in brackets is.

Does the PCN refer to having served a PCN to the driver, or not?

What was the gap between the parking event and when you RECEIVED the NTK (no not the date on it).

Which bit in brackets do you mean about being the wrong wording? Do you mean this: 'You are warned that if after 29 days from the date given (which is presumed to be the 2nd working date after the issue date)' ?


Re: Does the PCN refer to having served a PCN to the driver, or not?


I would say that the following sentence makes it sound like a PCN has already been given? Otherwise, why would they have expected a payment to already have been paid?


"By parking outside a marked bay you have incurred this charge. Payment for this charge has not been received and is therefore due to SR Security (as the creditor)"


Do you agree?


RE: What was the gap between the parking event and when you RECEIVED the NTK (no not the date on it).


Let's say I received the PCN letter through my letterbox on Fri 10th of Jan, the Issue date on the PCN letter would say 9th of Jan and the Date of the vehicle being observed, recorded (& photographed) would be the previous Friday the 3rd of Jan.

Coupon-mad

I told you in post #6 which wording was wrong, and you can check it against the POFA yourself and see!

I would say that the following sentence makes it sound like a PCN has already been given? Otherwise, why would they have expected a payment to already have been paid?

"By parking outside a marked bay you have incurred this charge. Payment for this charge has not been received and is therefore due to SR Security (as the creditor)"

Do you agree?

No. That's standard blather and doesn't say a PCN was served. If they say it, usually it's nearer the start.

3kisses

Coupon-mad wrote: »

I told you in post #6 which wording was wrong, and you can check it against the POFA yourself and see!

I would say that the following sentence makes it sound like a PCN has already been given? Otherwise, why would they have expected a payment to already have been paid?


No. That's standard blather and doesn't say a PCN was served. If they say it, usually it's nearer the start.

OK. I just sent the standard Blue template from the newbie thread to their email address and deleted the lines that didn't apply; i.e:



- If the allegation concerns a PDT machine, the data supplied in response to this appeal must include the record of payments made - showing partial VRNs - and an explanation of the reason for the PCN, because your Notice does not explain it.

- If the allegation involves an alleged overstay of minutes, your evidence must include the actual grace period agreed by the landowner. If you fail to evidence the actual grace period that applies at this site or suggest that only one period applies, this will be disregarded as an attempt to mislead. In the absence of evidence, it will be reasonably taken to be a minimum of twenty minutes (ten on arrival and ten after parking time) in accordance with the official BPA article by Kelvin Reynolds about 'observation periods' on arrival being additional and separate to a 'grace period' at the end.

- in all cases, you must include a close up actual photograph of the sign you contend was at the location on the material date.


I hope that was the right thing to do? I'm assuming then that SR Security will simply reply with a POPLA code? Should I then:


1) Signage - Complain about position and amount of info and sizes of fonts on their signs & Send photos of their signs?


2) Landowner Authority - No evidence of Landowner Authority - the operator is put to strict proof of full compliance with the BPA Code of Practice (I am not sure what this should look like on their signs / PCN?)


3) Quote their sentence:
'You are warned that if after 29 days from the date given (which is presumed to be the 2nd working date after the issue date) the Parking charge has not been paid in full & we don't know the name of the & address of the driver, we have the right to recover any unpaid part of the Parking charge from you'



and state like you said 'No, in law it most certainly is not." and look up Paragraph 9(2) of POFA (as no windscreen PCN) and quote it back to them?