Northern Parking Services PCN

Muzzzz

Jomot wrote: »

Someone with more experience may be able to help you more, but I was just reading another post and wondered if perhaps your situation falls into the 'Observation Period' category?

https://www.britishparking.co.uk/News/good-car-parking-practice-includes-grace-periods

Very good point! I agree that this seems to be the case, I have already submitted my POPLA so I will use some quotes from that article in my comments to help get the point across.

Weasel_Watcher

Jomot wrote: »

Someone with more experience may be able to help you more, but I was just reading another post and wondered if perhaps your situation falls into the 'Observation Period' category?

https://www.britishparking.co.uk/News/good-car-parking-practice-includes-grace-periods

That's an interesting link. We have Gemma's email trying to apply weasel-words to claim that a suitable grace period doesn't apply to prohibited parking, yet here they are in their very own words saying it does.

Muzzzz

Weasel_Watcher wrote: »

That's an interesting link. We have Gemma's email trying to apply weasel-words to claim that a suitable grace period doesn't apply to prohibited parking, yet here they are in their very own words saying it does.

Very true. I think that link is a very good point and I will be using snippets of that in my 2000 character limited evidence comments, Gemma has been trying to argue with me that parking was not permitted therefore they do not require grace periods even though parking is clearly permitted as per the signs (out of date as well) I feel my point is completely relevant I just hope I can explain it well enough for POPLA to understand.

waamo

Muzzzz wrote: »

Very true. I think that link is a very good point and I will be using snippets of that in my 2000 character limited evidence comments, Gemma has been trying to argue with me that parking was not permitted therefore they do not require grace periods even though parking is clearly permitted as per the signs (out of date as well) I feel my point is completely relevant I just hope I can explain it well enough for POPLA to understand.

Explain it here. The parking company have very helpfully provided a link to the thread. If POPLA read it then they might see a fuller picture

Muzzzz

That is very true haha!

Muzzzz

"The terms and conditions are clear, in that a valid permit needs to be displayed. As no valid permit was on display (as they don't exist)"

Does this sentence have any grounds for comment? They have stated that the ToS signs say a valid permit needs to be displayed yet they are stating that physical permits don't exist?

Muzzzz

Also anything I can add about this witness statement?

https://imgur.com/OUdieOz

Thanks.

Muzzzz

The car park is not “permit holders only” it is permit holders AND restaurant patrons. As for the 5 minute grace period, this article (https://www.britishparking.co.uk/News/good-car-parking-practice-includes-grace-periods) featuring Kelvin Reynolds, BPA Director of Corporate Affairs says there is a difference between ‘grace’ periods and ‘observation’ periods in parking and that good practice allows for this.
“An observation period is the time when an enforcement officer should be able to determine what the motorist intends to do once in the car park. Our guidance specifically says that there must be sufficient time for the motorist to park their car, observe the signs, decide whether they want to comply with the operator’s conditions and either drive away or pay for a ticket,” he explains.
“No time limit is specified. This is because it might take one person five minutes, but another person 10 minutes depending on various factors, not limited to disability.”
It is written no time limit is specified, so for a potential restaurant patron to enter the site, park, observe signs, walk to the restaurant to find it closed, walk back to the car, enter the car and assist any passengers and drive to the exit in under 5 minutes is ludicrous, the operator is not allowing a realistic timeframe for drivers to do all of this and then leave, they have failed to uphold there mandatory “observation period”

Gemma was referring wrongly to the BPA CoP 13.1 “13.1 If a driver is parking without your permission” this car park was not without permission (restaurant patrons invited to park) and the correct clause is 13.2 “2 If the parking location is one where parking is normally permitted, you must allow the driver a reasonable grace period in addition to the parking event before enforcement action is taken. In such instances the grace period must be a minimum of 10 minutes” again stating 10 minutes minimum which the operator has failed to uphold, once I corrected her of the terms she should have referred to she didn’t reply.
All photos present are either close up of entry signs which don’t realistically portray how a driver focused on driving will see them upon entry to the site or aimed towards one wall which does have ToS signs present, the pictures do not depict the weather on the day nor do they show where the car in question was parked and if they were parked with a sign in view

Pictures in my PDF show that restaurant parking is available ALL DAY SATURDAY as can be found here (https://finkleandgreen.co.uk/contact/) so the point about being before 5 is irrelevant, and does not change the fact that invitation to treat signs are still in place despite being out of date and void for impossibility “An impossible contract is a contract which has terms which would be, for whatever reason, impossible to actually fulfil. An impossible contract would therefore be considered not legally binding and would likely be rendered null and void under contract law.”
The letter did contain POFA 2012 wording however there is no relevant contract for them to refer to as the contract is null and not legally binding due to the impossibility of terms

Here is what I have so far it needs trimming still especially if I am to add more, if anyone can advise.

Jomot

Again, others may think differently, but it seems pretty clear to me that the driver parked, observed the signs, decided they wanted to comply with the operator’s conditions (validate Reg No. upon entering), walked up to the restaurant to do so ... only to find it closed. Permanently so, it transpires, although whether that was evident by any signage at the premises, who knows??

I can only speak for myself, but if there was no clear signage saying it was closed permanently then I'd probably wander around the building looking for another entrance perhaps, or some indication of what was going on. I'd maybe even ask at one of the nearby bars (most Stocktonians know that a bunch of the bars/restaurants in that Quarter are connected by common owners, although no-one quite knows which ones!). All of that would easily take a good 10-15 minutes.

Muzzzz

Jomot wrote: »

Again, others may think differently, but it seems pretty clear to me that the driver parked, observed the signs, decided they wanted to comply with the operator’s conditions (validate Reg No. upon entering), walked up to the restaurant to do so ... only to find it closed. Permanently so, it transpires, although whether that was evident by any signage at the premises, who knows??

I can only speak for myself, but if there was no clear signage saying it was closed permanently then I'd probably wander around the building looking for another entrance perhaps, or some indication of what was going on. I'd maybe even ask at one of the nearby bars (most Stocktonians know that a bunch of the bars/restaurants in that Quarter are connected by common owners, although no-one quite knows which ones!). All of that would easily take a good 10-15 minutes.

I would think that is what happened also, as for signs around the area, I didn't see any around the car park when I went to take pictures. Meaning that the only option would be walking to the restaurant to find it closed and dashing back to the car to avoid a charge.

Very true about the other doors and what not, you would think the average person is going to try and find out what is going on if there aren't signs present, even googling to see would take a few minutes before you found out and left the car park.

I think my comments above are okay for their evidence but they are way over 2000 characters so I need to streamline it