Northern Parking Services PCN

The_Deep

Also read the first thread entitled PoPLA Decisions.

Coupon-mad

Yes but not from the start!

MistyZ

Muzzzz wrote: »

Hi all, I have received a rejection letter for the appeal today along with a POPLA code. The letter also states that my appeal was a "much seen internet template which is wrong on more that one point" (yes the "that" is actually wrote on the letter)

Don't let this faze you. It's unprofessional (surprise surprise) and designed to unsettle you, all part of their pathetically desperate intimidatory tactics. Not exactly a sign of confidence on their part so go get 'em.

8 minutes! Grace periods are definitely going to feature in that POPLA appeal.

Muzzzz

MistyZ wrote: »

Don't let this faze you. It's unprofessional (surprise surprise) and designed to unsettle you, all part of their pathetically desperate intimidatory tactics. Not exactly a sign of confidence on their part so go get 'em.

8 minutes! Grace periods are definitely going to feature in that POPLA appeal.

Apprently there grace periods are 5 minutes according to the letters. I will check the signs as I do not know if that is written on them. But even if it is, 3 minutes over a grace period shouldn't reflect £100 "charge" maybe £1-£3 if they seriously feel they are owed for their loss

Muzzzz

I visited the restaurant website that operates the car park in the hours the car was there (Saturday) given that the parking time was 8 minutes it would be safe the assume that the driver could have parked, went and looked over the menu of the restaurant and decided to go elsewhere hence the short stay and no register of the number plate. Would this be a good point to add to the POPLA appeal? See below which is copy and pasted direct from the site.

"Our on-site car park is available for guest use only after 5:30pm and all day on a Saturday and Sunday. Please register your registration number on arrival with the host to avoid receiving a ticket."

MistyZ

I'm not sure that your perfectly valid point about needing time to check out the restaurant will have any mileage with POPLA, It tends to be technicalities that win. However it does seem that NPS aren't taking a blind bit of notice of what the BPA Code of Practice has to say about grace periods and that is a point to make and to make well.

Just to convince you that the Newbies' thread really is worth ploughing through, here's an link given in the section KeithP recommends that provides a real education on grace periods (and may well be worth copying / adapting to fit the circumstances):

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/73797736#Comment_73797736

Muzzzz

Hi, so upon reading my first NTK letter it states on the back "protection of freedoms act" and goes on about how they can, after 29 days pursue me "the registered keeper" for unpaid charges.

Does this negate using the POFA 2012 argument in my POPLA as they have stated they don't need to know the driver and can pursue the keeper instead? Thanks.

Fruitcake

Muzzzz wrote: »

Hi, so upon reading my first NTK letter it states on the back "protection of freedoms act" and goes on about how they can, after 29 days pursue me "the registered keeper" for unpaid charges.

Does this negate using the POFA 2012 argument in my POPLA as they have stated they don't need to know the driver and can pursue the keeper instead? Thanks.

You need to check the wording on the NTK against the relevant paragraphs in Schedule 4 of the PoFA to answer that question. Para 8 if there was a NTD, Para 9 if there wasn't, Paras 13 and 14 if this was a hire/lease car.
The PoFA is linked from the NEWBIES.

If what you have quoted above is all they have said about the PoFA, then it is a non PoFA compliant NTK and therefore a winning point at PoPLA.

We can't check it for you because we haven't seen the NTK. You need to check it line by line to see whether it complies with the PoFA or not.

Muzzzz

Fruitcake wrote: »

You need to check the wording on the NTK against the relevant paragraphs in Schedule 4 of the PoFA to answer that question. Para 8 if there was a NTD, Para 9 if there wasn't, Paras 13 and 14 if this was a hire/lease car.
The PoFA is linked from the NEWBIES.

If what you have quoted above is all they have said about the PoFA, then it is a non PoFA compliant NTK and therefore a winning point at PoPLA.

We can't check it for you because we haven't seen the NTK. You need to check it line by line to see whether it complies with the PoFA or not.

I have checked it against that and it looks to me as they have covered themselves unless I am missing anything obvious, that wasn't all they said as there is a whole paragraph on it covering things such as "this notice is given to you under paragraph 9(2)(f) of schedule 4 of the POFA2012 and is subject to our complying with the applicable conditions under schedule 4 of that act"

The only obvious things for me on this PCN are the times are when the car entered and left the car park, not parked necessarily, the time stamps are separate from the photo underneath stating "arrival date/time" and the photos themselves don't show the car parked illegally, just what looks to me like the car entering/exiting the car park (the photo is quite small and seems cropped to the point where the car mainly takes up the whole image without being able to see context of where it actually is...

I took a photo of their sign in the car park which only specifies that "ANPR in operation" and "authorised vehicles & restaurant patrons only" with a lot of small waffle that is hard to read about how patrons must enter their number plate inside the restaurant and parking in marked bays etc.

Muzzzz

Hi all, wondering if this looks good for point number 1 regarding grace periods on the POPLA

1. No period of grace given for the driver to read the additional signs within the car park.

The parking session on the PCN is not established by the photographs provided. Photographs taken show merely the time of entry into and exit from the car park but do not establish the time at which the car actually parked in a parking bay.

The BPA Code of Practice (13.2) states that parking operators "should allow the driver a reasonable ‘grace period’ in which to decide if they are going to stay or go. If the driver is on your land without permission, you should still allow them a grace period to read your signs and leave before you take enforcement action." the entrance signs to this car park are insufficient to allow the driver to decide whether parking in the car park would breach any contract. The additional sign is within the car park and past the point where the ANPR camera has captured an entry time and therefore a grace period should be given to read the additional sign and decide whether to adhere to the terms of the contract or leave the car park. In addition, the BPA Code of Practice (13.4) states that the parking operators “should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended, before you take enforcement action. If the location is one where parking is normally permitted, the grace period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes.”

The driver of the car at the time was captured by ANPR cameras driving in to the car park at 1.24pm and driving out at 1.32pm on the same date. This falls below the 10 minute minimum and does not allow for enough time to park, read the signs and decide whether to stay in the carpark. This is further backed up when you observe that restaurant patrons using the car park need to enter a registration number with the restaurant, if the driver intended to visit the restaurant but changed their mind for whatever reason, the grace period should allow for enough time for the driver to enter the car park, park, observe the small signs positioned high on the wall and also view what the restaurant offers before deciding if they will remain in the car park. If the driver decides against using the facilities then they will not have entered a registration plate and require enough of a grace period to leave without being picked up by the ANPR cameras.

It is very clear from the evidence that NPS have failed to uphold the minimum grace periods as set out in the BPA Code of Practice, as the total time in the carpark amounted to only 8 minutes. Not sufficient time for a driver to do all of the above and leave.