Chance of appeal?

londonlowrider

Has anyone heard of All Parking Services?

I received a PCN (private) last night for parking for ten minutes in a gravel area off the private road leading to a friends house. There are signs behind each bay saying 'Private parking for customers of xxxx'. This was at 8pm - outside the business hours of the company - and I parked there whilst collecting something. What I hadn't noticed were the unlit signs (there is no indirect lighting either) at the far end of the gravel area giving APS Ltds ts & cs and outlining the charge amounts. The PCN states 'failure to display a parking permit'

On leaving the area (with my yellow checked gift!) I noticed a sign on a wall near the entry to the road that would only be visible when turning in from the opposite direction, noting that it was private parking managed by APL and to refer to other signs for Ts & Cs.

I've tried contacting the landowner but they say its 'out of their control' (?) and to appeal to the parking company.

Am I correct in thinking that the basis for my appeal would be:
- Inadequate signage (lighting, position and dominance of larger signs stating parking is for customers without any Ts & Cs/charges included)
- lack of grace period - ticket is timed 1950 but I cannot have parked before 1945

I'm unclear from the advice I've read here and on BPA (APS are a member) as to whether the grace period applies to parking areas without charges?

I have read the newbies thread but other similar examples all seem to relate to overstays/confusion about payment whereas this is about permitting. I've seen mixed advice about appealing vs trying to run the clock down - I'm heavily pregnant and although I really don't want to shell out £60/£100 needlessly, could also do without the added stress!

Any advice? TIA

waamo

BPA operator so POPLA is available. At the top of this board is a thread that tells Newbies to read it first. Send the blue template and read up about POPLA appeals.

londonlowrider

Thanks @waamo - I've read the Newbies thread and the blue template however the majority of it doesn't apply (reference to overstay or payment) hence the queries above. I'm also conscious that very soon I'm going to be very tied up (I spent a month in hospital after having my last child) so am keen to try and resolve as quickly as possible.

Am I right in thinking I should immediately appeal and then if they reject that, I can go straight to POPLA (with the code they have to provide as part of the appeal rejection?). I know the general advice but I'm nervous about losing and the £60 becoming significantly more - I understand once you go to POPLA, the 14 day discount comes off the table?

waamo

Yes it does apply. The purpose of it is to get a POPLA code without revealing who was driving. Send it unaltered.

londonlowrider

Ok - thanks for clarifying. So I send the appeal, identifying myself as the keeper, but only after 3 weeks have passed?

waamo

You've got it. In the meantime get looking up about POPLA appeals.

londonlowrider

Even more promising - just checked popla reports for past 3 years. All appeals to them were allowed in 2018 & 2017, only 2 refused in 2016. Quite like those odds!

Coupon-mad

I've read the Newbies thread and the blue template however the majority of it doesn't apply

Yes it does apply, albeit you can remove the bit about VRNs and overstays if you like.

DO NOT appeal straight away; appealing on day 26 is a tactic with a reason behind it. This is explained in the NEWBIES thread and it works like a dream most times.

londonlowrider

Hi all,
Thanks for the various replies. Before I get flamed for not following the advice above, I am likely to be in hospital for a significant period soon and therefore can't wait until day 26 to issue the standard response and then follow it up at the right dates. I have read the newbies thread in full! I'm currently on day 12 and am intending to send the following. I need to try and get this appeal through ASAP so I have time to go to POPLA ASAP if need be. Any comments very much welcome.

Re PCN number:

As the keeper of the vehicle concerned, I dispute this ‘parking charge’. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and have also been in contact with the landowner in question. There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn.
The basis for this appeal is as follows:
Insufficient Signage
The BPA Code of Conduct states
‘Signs must be conspicuous and legible, and written in intelligible language, so that they are easy to see, read and understand. Signs showing your detailed terms and conditions must be at least 450mm x 450mm.’
The PCN is timed 19:50, well after sunset. There is no lighting whatsoever, in either the parking area in question or the lane leading to it. The only way in which any signs are visible, let alone legible, is if you were to point your headlights directly at them. This is compounded by them being below the minimum dimensions as set out in the BPA code of conduct.

Having visited this site during daylight hours it is clear that the two signs present are towards the far corner, mounted high up on trees and both with the same orientation. They are noticeably less prominent than the signs stating parking is for ‘staff and customers of Target Timber’. On the night in question I understand one sign was further obscured by the presence of a parked car and a large Grundon type bin. The text is only legible by standing immediately in front of the sign which is restricted due to both the elevation of the sign and the undergrowth whilst the key information, in this case the charge, is insufficiently prominent amongst the rest of the text.

There is one small sign at the entrance to the lane advising that parking is controlled and to refer to specific site signage. This is aligned perpendicular to the flow of traffic and fronts directly onto the lane itself (which is not controlled and accesses other properties). This would only be visible when approaching the site from the north, not the south.

Furthermore, BPA note that:
‘So that disabled motorists can decide whether they want to use the site, there must be at least one sign containing the terms and conditions for parking that can be viewed without needing to leave the vehicle. Ideally this sign must be close to any parking bays set aside for disabled motorists.’
As outlined above, this is not the case at this site, despite ample opportunity for displaying signage along the perimeter fencing.

Inadequate time between arrival and issue of the PCN ('grace period')
Had the terms and conditions been communicated, there still would have been the need to offer the driver adequate time to accept the terms and conditions. The PCN is timed 19:50, 5 minutes after the driver’s arrival and 5 minutes before their departure at 19:55 (a total stay of 10 minutes). Please confirm the actual grace period agreed by the landowner. If you fail to evidence the actual grace period that applies at this site, it will be reasonably taken to be a minimum of ten minutes as per the BPD Code of Conduct

Unfair or impossible terms
The signage states ‘parked within marked bays only’. The parking area in question has no formal demarcation from the access road which, as previously mentioned, is not solely for the access of this land. There are no markings on the boundary fence or ground, which is rough gravel/earth. Even in the knowledge of the full terms it would be impossible to comply with them on this basis.

If you choose to reject this appeal, such that further action can be appropriately taken, please provide all photos relating to the vehicle in question including:
- a photo of the car in relation to any signage (without flash photography to artificially distort the visibility of any signage)
- a close up actual photograph of the sign you contend was at the location on the material date.

Should you later pursue this charge by way of litigation, note that service of any legal documents by email is expressly disallowed and you are not entitled to assume that the data in this dispute/appeal remains the current address for service in the future.

Yours faithfully,

D_P_Dance

Complain to your MP. On 18th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these private parking companies. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, and persistent offenders denied access. Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers.

Until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted

Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.

waamo

If you can't wait to send the template on day 26 then send it now. As has been said they will ignore any first appeal so keep your powder dry for POPLA.