Parking charge notice/fine - bought but wrong VRM

Starwalker

Hi

I would be so grateful for your help with this.

Just to be clear I was not the driver at the time and am not prepared to tell the company who it was (reasons explained below). That said, I know they paid for their parking and always do however the very annoying thing is that they do not have the ticket It seems they have not entered their reg properly and this is how this has fine arisen! I mean it is ridiculous! They have either input it in wrong or put the reg of another car they use. The company is PE. I have not wrote to appeal to them just yet and was seeking advice first, but will do this at first instance. They have a photo of the vehicle entering the car park and leaving and confirm it remained for a time of fifty minutes duration. The duration is clearly consistent with the 1 hour time that is always purchased at this time of day on this day of the week. They are demanding a hundred pounds but it is reduced to sixty if paid in fourteen days.

Now, the first thing is the event took place on 2/02/19 yet I only received the PCN today 20/02/2019. Is this within the time frame that they should have served the fine? It is stated to have been issued on 16/02. Is this a defence on any sort?

Secondly on the presumption that I have not named the driver yet a) am I legally obliged to do so? and b) what if I do not?

If the above two are of no use how do I get the company to evidence that a ticket was purchased immediately, or v soon, after the vehicle's arrival. They must have this evidence. There was no queue of cars going in at the time it was fairly quiet so I suspect there could only be mine at around that time and one that closely matches the vehicle's VRM or of the other car. Incidentally they state you 'either stayed too long or did not pay enough' so it presumes that they knew it may have been paid for. I am certain it was paid for and cannot see anywhere that putting the wrong vrm can lead to a fine. It seems this is the payback for a human error initiated by an AI system that now no longer uses people to check tickets displayed in cars. If it had been checked physically nothing would have happened. Please help v worried. I think this is despicable, the person using the car park does often and would never try to cheat out of paying. I just need them to see it was paid for. I am willing to visit my MP if it helps.

Many thanks and kind regards

Redx

they had 14 days to get the NTK to the keeper, so look at the GOLDEN TICKET option in the newbies thread, appeal as keeper with the blue text template , on their website (do NOT write to them)

the fact they failed POFA means you as keeper are off the hook, but you must still go through the motions

you are not legally obliged to name the driver, so dont


its not a "fine" , its an invoice, so please do not use the F word

Starwalker

There is nothing about the POFA 2012 on the front or the back.

Ok I read the golden ticket post and noted that poster had theirs delivered after 53 days. He also said that condition for using this defence was only applicable when calculating the first day of 14 on the first day after the event.

In my case it would make it 3 Feb to being served on 20 Feb. However what about the weekdays? Surely they count for nothing so it is actually within in time. The 3rd was a Sunday.

KeithP

You need to read POFA Sch4 paras 9(4), 9(5) and 9(6).

Starwalker

(5) The relevant period for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4) is the period of 14 days beginning with the day after that on which the specified period of parking ended.

In my case it therefore begins 03/02. Is it therefore correct they had until 17th to get it to me bearing in mind 17th is a Sunday? Nothing is stated about non 'working days' in this fourteen day period not being counted.

However...

(6) A notice sent by post is to be presumed, unless the contrary is proved, to have been delivered (and so “given” for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4)) on the second working day after the day on which it is posted; and for this purpose “working day” means any day other than a Saturday, Sunday or a public holiday in England and Wales.

So the date of 'Issue' on my notice is 16/02 and 'Date' itself is also 16/02, but this is a Saturday.

Could someone please double check my calculations on this. I am thinking it has been delivered on time because you can't post on a Saturday. So the second working day after posting, could only be monday, is 20/02 - the day I got it.

However, I'm not sure. They dated it 16/02 and surely you can actually post on a Saturday and should by rights on the day of writing. So then the second working day would be 19/02, which would be late in my opinion.

Or is it all late anyway in accordance with sub para 5 in that it did not get to me by 17th!

Many thanks

Batman3479

It sounds like you have 2 arguments against PE on this
1 - the notice sent by post arrived 'too late'. (this is g 'golden ticket' and is probably the easier route
2 - a ticket was fairly bought, but human error meant it was for the wrong reg number.

I suspect #1 will be easier to argue; so your argument is that they have not identified the DRIVER of the vehicle; you have no legal obligation to tell them who it is (assuming the 14 days referenced above is correct; therefore they have no one to chase.

The Golden Ticket thread has templates for this, but the short version is:
- you appeal to PE via their site - which they'll probably reject - but that's OK, as you are appealing PURELY to get a POPLA reference number, which they have to provide.
- you go to POPLA (the authority over these things) with the reference, and you tell them PE haven't proven who the driver is, and the notice was outside the window within which you are obliged to identify the driver. There is a template on the Golden Ticket sticky thread.
- POPLA should then get PE to cancel the fine.

This is all based on you NOT telling PE who the driver is; note that the notice of 14 days only applies if there was NO on-windscreen ticket - if there was, the window is a lot longer for them.

That was my experience in mid-2018, and it worked.

There may be no harm in your appeal to PE to include both arguments, but make sure you only reference 'the driver' and 'the keeper'. You never know, PE may accept!

Starwalker

Many thanks Batman!

What about my days calculations in accordance with POFA?

I’d hate to appeal this only for them (either PE or POPLA) to say it was served/delivered in 14 days!

Looking at some recent PE appeals on here I notice POFA 12 arguments failed. Although this appears to be because the appellant did not identify the driver yet the notice was compliant with POFA 12. Please therefore advise if the golden ticket argument that the notice NOT mentioning POFA12 anywhere on it is still a good one to win on appeal, as mine does not mention it anywhere!??

Also is there any harm in paying the reduced fine like you did Batman and still appealing on so that they have to pay me back once they see their error?

Kind regards to all sincerely appreciated



Kind regards

nosferatu1001

Starwalker - no, youre wrong on this

They have to get it to you within 14 days, period. No ifs, or buts
It is THEIR job to ensure this, and they dont get allowances for posting it late, just because htey posted it on a saturday

As they posted it on a saturday its not deemed delivered until Wednesday, either. Enters the normal course of post on a monday, delivered 2 days later.

The 14 days is the day after the event, and no later.

nosferatu1001

If you pay there is no chance to appela. POPLA will reject it.
Again, failing to mention POFA isnt the fila, it is not delivering wihtin 14 dyas, starting with the day after hte event. No ifs or buts

they had ot get it there by the 17th, meaning actually the 15th as that is the final working day.

Coupon-mad

the first thing is the event took place on 2/02/19 yet I only received the PCN today 20/02/2019. Is this within the time frame that they should have served the fine? It is stated to have been issued on 16/02.

I read the golden ticket post and noted that

...it's not just about the dates...!

You haven't told us about the wording on the back, despite seeing the post telling you about a Golden Ticket. Which is NOT JUST ABOUT THE DATES.

Starwalker

Hi Coupon,

Thanks for replying.

Can you be more specific about what wording should have been omitted or included for that matter to make it a golden ticket? I thought it was that they made no reference to the notice being in accordance with POFA 2012? If it helps they also say you ‘should name the driver, but there is no warning about not doing so.

Kind regards