The Top Easy Access Savings Discussion Area

PixelPound

spider42 said:

nic_c said:

martinm1 said:

europa said:

Rollinghome said:

europa said:

Rollinghome said:

grumbler said:

Rollinghome said:

flobbalobbalob said:

Rollinghome said:

Justsayit7 said:

Cynergy not doing monthly interest are missing a trick. 4.80%

Could be, but with banks like Cynergy offering new accounts after 11 days, any serious rate hoppers opting for monthly interest would be losing a smidgeon if they kept switching accounts.  

When an annual account is paying 4.80%, a monthly version would only pay 4.70% after a month.  The monthly rate will only match the annual rate if closed on an anniversary.

But then I never understood why anyone would want monthly interest from an easy access account. For a one or more years fixed term I do understand.

4.8% AER pays exactly the same per day as 4.7% monthly . Both accrue the same interest daily and nothing to do with an aniversary.

You clearly don't understand what AER means do you?  I'll give you a clue, it means annual equivalent rate, not daily equivalent rate.

An account paying 4.7% interest monthly will pay a daily applied rate of 4.7%. Compounded each month that will give you the equivalent of 4.8% (AER) after 12 months, and only after 12 months.  If you close the account at one month there will be no compounding so you will only get 4.7%.  You will only get 4.8% AER if held for a full year or following anniversaries.

 '4.8% annual' will pay a daily applied rate of 4.8%  No matter when the account is closed, you will still get 4.8% AER.
If that isn't clear, you need to try googling.

I'm not convinced. Can you google and post a reliable proof, preferably with an example of calculation?

And even if what you say is true, I don't see any significant difference for 4.7% and 4.8%.

1.048^(1/12) = 1.00391

4.7/12 = 0.392

Nope sorry. I've wasted enough time on this already.  It's your money and if you still don't get it, you don't get it. DYOR.

Andy's point above is completely right too.  If you open the Cynergy account with 4.8% AER annual interest, you'd get more than that if you closed the account and so compounded early. Always assuming the new account paid the same rate or better.

We aren't talking big numbers here, unless a very large sum is held in the account.  The applied rate for monthly is just 0.10% lower, but interest received will be a little bit lower if held for less than 12 months or another anniversary of the account.  Annual Equivalent Rate means you get that rate if held for a year.

This is incredibly useful info. I am relatively savvy with these things, and even i thought monthly interest (with the same AER) was equivalent regardless of when the money is withdrawn. So many thanks for alerting me and others to this important anomaly !

That's good.  It's not a lot of money to worry about unless the balance is large but just as well in our pocket as in the bank's.  And it might be why so many banks are offering monthly only accounts now.

Indeed. If i were a bank, that's exactly what i would do. AER clearly isn't fit for purpose. 

It is fit for purpose as it allows comparing different products to normalise them over one year.  Compound interest seems to confuse a lot of people, so I'm sure that's why AER was introduced.

Especially those on here who seem to think AER isn't "fit for purpose"

Whether an account pays interest monthly or annually, if the AER is the same and any deposits/withdrawals the same, the interest you get after 12 months will be the same. If you close it part way through the year (assuming no penalties) then you'd get the same interest.

AER was introduced to allow people to compare products easily, often prior to it's introduction you'd get banks etc quoting whatever interest rate version that made it look most favourable (e.g. loans quoted on gross, credit cards on monthly equivalents etc)

I'm afraid this is wholly inaccurate. If you close part way through the year, you most definitely will NOT receive the same amount of interest in a monthly versus an annual account. It won't be much different, but it will be different. This should be obvious if consider what happens if you close an account after a month. Let's look at the Paragon Double Access account as an example. Annual rate (and AER of the monthly account) is 4.75%. The gross rate for the monthly account is 4.65%. When left to compound over a full year this will leave you with 4.75%.

But if you close after a month, then with a monthly account, you've received 4.65% for a month (let's suppose 4.65%/12 for simplicity, although in reality, it would be 4.65% * days in the month / 365).

With an annual account closed after a month, you'd earn 4.75%/12. An annual paying account would therefore clearly receive more interest than the monthly account if closed after a month.

It doesn't work like that in reality as interest is calculated daily for each they don't just calculate the interest when you close it as the balance may have varied. 

Let's say you opened an account with £1000, put it upto £20K after a week, after say a month withdrew 19k but left the £1000 in for a couple of months before closing. You are not going to get just the interest on the £1000 if you'd opted for the interest to be annual.

Whether you opt for annual or monthly, so long as any interest is paid into the account not withdrawn or paid elsewhere, you will get the same. You don't get 4.75% if closing early, because then the rate would be different to the AER and the whole point of AER is a standardisation measure.

pfpf

is that govt/hmrc linking thing still a thing? you add your accounts and get paid per account! something along those lines. i know there's a long thread here somewhere but can't find it.
is it still worth doing if indeed its still going?

Bridlington1

pfpf said:

is that govt/hmrc linking thing still a thing? you add your accounts and get paid per account! something along those lines. i know there's a long thread here somewhere but can't find it.
is it still worth doing if indeed its still going?

Do you mean YouGov finance? If so the thread about it is below:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6416681/yougov-finance-bribe

pfpf

i used loads of buzzwords trying to find the thread, but not yougov. thank you.

Rollinghome

flobbalobbalob said:

spider42 said:

nic_c said:

martinm1 said:

europa said:

Rollinghome said:

europa said:

Rollinghome said:

grumbler said:

Rollinghome said:

flobbalobbalob said:

Rollinghome said:

Justsayit7 said:

Cynergy not doing monthly interest are missing a trick. 4.80%

Could be, but with banks like Cynergy offering new accounts after 11 days, any serious rate hoppers opting for monthly interest would be losing a smidgeon if they kept switching accounts.  

When an annual account is paying 4.80%, a monthly version would only pay 4.70% after a month.  The monthly rate will only match the annual rate if closed on an anniversary.

But then I never understood why anyone would want monthly interest from an easy access account. For a one or more years fixed term I do understand.

4.8% AER pays exactly the same per day as 4.7% monthly . Both accrue the same interest daily and nothing to do with an aniversary.

You clearly don't understand what AER means do you?  I'll give you a clue, it means annual equivalent rate, not daily equivalent rate.

An account paying 4.7% interest monthly will pay a daily applied rate of 4.7%. Compounded each month that will give you the equivalent of 4.8% (AER) after 12 months, and only after 12 months.  If you close the account at one month there will be no compounding so you will only get 4.7%.  You will only get 4.8% AER if held for a full year or following anniversaries.

 '4.8% annual' will pay a daily applied rate of 4.8%  No matter when the account is closed, you will still get 4.8% AER.
If that isn't clear, you need to try googling.

I'm not convinced. Can you google and post a reliable proof, preferably with an example of calculation?

And even if what you say is true, I don't see any significant difference for 4.7% and 4.8%.

1.048^(1/12) = 1.00391

4.7/12 = 0.392

Nope sorry. I've wasted enough time on this already.  It's your money and if you still don't get it, you don't get it. DYOR.

Andy's point above is completely right too.  If you open the Cynergy account with 4.8% AER annual interest, you'd get more than that if you closed the account and so compounded early. Always assuming the new account paid the same rate or better.

We aren't talking big numbers here, unless a very large sum is held in the account.  The applied rate for monthly is just 0.10% lower, but interest received will be a little bit lower if held for less than 12 months or another anniversary of the account.  Annual Equivalent Rate means you get that rate if held for a year.

This is incredibly useful info. I am relatively savvy with these things, and even i thought monthly interest (with the same AER) was equivalent regardless of when the money is withdrawn. So many thanks for alerting me and others to this important anomaly !

That's good.  It's not a lot of money to worry about unless the balance is large but just as well in our pocket as in the bank's.  And it might be why so many banks are offering monthly only accounts now.

Indeed. If i were a bank, that's exactly what i would do. AER clearly isn't fit for purpose. 

It is fit for purpose as it allows comparing different products to normalise them over one year.  Compound interest seems to confuse a lot of people, so I'm sure that's why AER was introduced.

Especially those on here who seem to think AER isn't "fit for purpose"

Whether an account pays interest monthly or annually, if the AER is the same and any deposits/withdrawals the same, the interest you get after 12 months will be the same. If you close it part way through the year (assuming no penalties) then you'd get the same interest.

AER was introduced to allow people to compare products easily, often prior to it's introduction you'd get banks etc quoting whatever interest rate version that made it look most favourable (e.g. loans quoted on gross, credit cards on monthly equivalents etc)

I'm afraid this is wholly inaccurate. If you close part way through the year, you most definitely will NOT receive the same amount of interest in a monthly versus an annual account. It won't be much different, but it will be different. This should be obvious if consider what happens if you close an account after a month. Let's look at the Paragon Double Access account as an example. Annual rate (and AER of the monthly account) is 4.75%. The gross rate for the monthly account is 4.65%. When left to compound over a full year this will leave you with 4.75%.

But if you close after a month, then with a monthly account, you've received 4.65% for a month (let's suppose 4.65%/12 for simplicity, although in reality, it would be 4.65% * days in the month / 365).

With an annual account closed after a month, you'd earn 4.75%/12. An annual paying account would therefore clearly receive more interest than the monthly account if closed after a month.

On my Marcus online savings account (monthly interest option) the interest is "calculated daily and paid monthly" .  The monthly interest added matches the amount I calculated using compounding the daily interest over the number of days since the previous month. So I think it matches the annual option apart from some rounding errors on the pennies each month which seem to always round up. 

Calculating interest isn't the same as compounding interest.  

It's standard practice to calculate interest daily based on the balance in the account at the end of the day.  For a monthly account, that daily interest is then added together at the end of the month and added to the account.  If you don't withdraw the interest, you will get interest on the original sum and on that interest already earned when the calculation is done for the following month. That is compounding.

If a monthly account is compounded for less than a full year, then you will get less than the AER figure.  The A stands for annual. If you close an annual interest account at any time before the end of a year, the opposite happens, you will get more than the AER for the applicable period, assuming that the closing interest is reinvested at the same rate or more.

Only on the anniversary of the accounts will the return be the same for both types of accounts.

Nick_C

Re interest calculations.  AER, monthly.  Can you take this to another thread please and keep this one on topic.

UncleK

Nick_C said:

Re interest calculations.  AER, monthly.  Can you take this to another thread please and keep this one on topic.

Hear, hear

friolento

pfpf said:

is that govt/hmrc linking thing still a thing? you add your accounts and get paid per account! something along those lines. i know there's a long thread here somewhere but can't find it.
is it still worth doing if indeed its still going?

@pfpf you must mean the yougov thing? It is nothing to do with government or hmrc but it is a private company called yougov. I think the link @Bridlington1 has posted has more on this. Nothing to do with easy access savings, either

Cold_comfort

Rollinghome said:

flobbalobbalob said:

spider42 said:

nic_c said:

martinm1 said:

europa said:

Rollinghome said:

europa said:

Rollinghome said:

grumbler said:

Rollinghome said:

flobbalobbalob said:

Rollinghome said:

Justsayit7 said:

Cynergy not doing monthly interest are missing a trick. 4.80%

Could be, but with banks like Cynergy offering new accounts after 11 days, any serious rate hoppers opting for monthly interest would be losing a smidgeon if they kept switching accounts.  

When an annual account is paying 4.80%, a monthly version would only pay 4.70% after a month.  The monthly rate will only match the annual rate if closed on an anniversary.

But then I never understood why anyone would want monthly interest from an easy access account. For a one or more years fixed term I do understand.

4.8% AER pays exactly the same per day as 4.7% monthly . Both accrue the same interest daily and nothing to do with an aniversary.

You clearly don't understand what AER means do you?  I'll give you a clue, it means annual equivalent rate, not daily equivalent rate.

An account paying 4.7% interest monthly will pay a daily applied rate of 4.7%. Compounded each month that will give you the equivalent of 4.8% (AER) after 12 months, and only after 12 months.  If you close the account at one month there will be no compounding so you will only get 4.7%.  You will only get 4.8% AER if held for a full year or following anniversaries.

 '4.8% annual' will pay a daily applied rate of 4.8%  No matter when the account is closed, you will still get 4.8% AER.
If that isn't clear, you need to try googling.

I'm not convinced. Can you google and post a reliable proof, preferably with an example of calculation?

And even if what you say is true, I don't see any significant difference for 4.7% and 4.8%.

1.048^(1/12) = 1.00391

4.7/12 = 0.392

Nope sorry. I've wasted enough time on this already.  It's your money and if you still don't get it, you don't get it. DYOR.

Andy's point above is completely right too.  If you open the Cynergy account with 4.8% AER annual interest, you'd get more than that if you closed the account and so compounded early. Always assuming the new account paid the same rate or better.

We aren't talking big numbers here, unless a very large sum is held in the account.  The applied rate for monthly is just 0.10% lower, but interest received will be a little bit lower if held for less than 12 months or another anniversary of the account.  Annual Equivalent Rate means you get that rate if held for a year.

This is incredibly useful info. I am relatively savvy with these things, and even i thought monthly interest (with the same AER) was equivalent regardless of when the money is withdrawn. So many thanks for alerting me and others to this important anomaly !

That's good.  It's not a lot of money to worry about unless the balance is large but just as well in our pocket as in the bank's.  And it might be why so many banks are offering monthly only accounts now.

Indeed. If i were a bank, that's exactly what i would do. AER clearly isn't fit for purpose. 

It is fit for purpose as it allows comparing different products to normalise them over one year.  Compound interest seems to confuse a lot of people, so I'm sure that's why AER was introduced.

Especially those on here who seem to think AER isn't "fit for purpose"

Whether an account pays interest monthly or annually, if the AER is the same and any deposits/withdrawals the same, the interest you get after 12 months will be the same. If you close it part way through the year (assuming no penalties) then you'd get the same interest.

AER was introduced to allow people to compare products easily, often prior to it's introduction you'd get banks etc quoting whatever interest rate version that made it look most favourable (e.g. loans quoted on gross, credit cards on monthly equivalents etc)

I'm afraid this is wholly inaccurate. If you close part way through the year, you most definitely will NOT receive the same amount of interest in a monthly versus an annual account. It won't be much different, but it will be different. This should be obvious if consider what happens if you close an account after a month. Let's look at the Paragon Double Access account as an example. Annual rate (and AER of the monthly account) is 4.75%. The gross rate for the monthly account is 4.65%. When left to compound over a full year this will leave you with 4.75%.

But if you close after a month, then with a monthly account, you've received 4.65% for a month (let's suppose 4.65%/12 for simplicity, although in reality, it would be 4.65% * days in the month / 365).

With an annual account closed after a month, you'd earn 4.75%/12. An annual paying account would therefore clearly receive more interest than the monthly account if closed after a month.

On my Marcus online savings account (monthly interest option) the interest is "calculated daily and paid monthly" .  The monthly interest added matches the amount I calculated using compounding the daily interest over the number of days since the previous month. So I think it matches the annual option apart from some rounding errors on the pennies each month which seem to always round up. 

Calculating interest isn't the same as compounding interest.  

It's standard practice to calculate interest daily based on the balance in the account at the end of the day.  For a monthly account, that daily interest is then added together at the end of the month and added to the account.  If you don't withdraw the interest, you then get interest on the original sum and on that interest already earned when the calculation is done for the following month. That is compounding.

If a monthly account is compounded for less than a full year, then you will get less than the AER figure.  The A stands for annual. If you close an annual interest account at any time before the end of a year, the opposite happens, you will get more than the AER for the applicable period.

Only on the anniversary of the accounts will the return be the same for both types of accounts.

I have checked and can confirm for all the accounts I have closed in the past year (Coventry, Cynergy, DF Capital, Kent Reliance), the interest payment I received on closure was based on the nominal rate, not the quoted AER. So closing the account before the usual interest payment date meant I received the interest (calculated on a days/365 x nominal rate x balance basis) sooner than I would had I kept it open. As I was then able to reinvest that interest elsewhere, my experienced AER was greater than the quoted figure which assumes the balance is kept in the account for a whole year.

Rollinghome

UncleK said:

Nick_C said:

Re interest calculations.  AER, monthly.  Can you take this to another thread please and keep this one on topic.

Hear, hear

Those posts are on the subject of easy access savings accounts as per the title of this thread and the way EA interest is calculated. 
You want more posts saying "Hear hear" I take it, or perhaps kept to repeating interest rates that are listed on Moneyfacts?