UKPC took too long to respond to appeal, should I still POPLA appeal?

MA61

Coupon-mad wrote: »

I assume on the original document you will add a header with your name and the POPLA code, otherwise it's a document with no identification.

Yes, I didn't want to identify myself on a public forum so removed that before I uploaded it to Dropbox. Thanks for taking a look.

If you are citing rights under your lease you are going to have to show POPLA excerpts from that lease that support your case, and proof it is your lease (your name on the front page/signature box etc., as well as the relevant excepts granting you a prior unfettered right to park).

The lease contains the name of the original person who bought the property when it was developed in the 90s, not my name. The lease does not grant me unfettered rights to park, rather it includes the following clause in the schedule dealing with rights included in the demise:

The right for the Lessee and the tenant or occupiers of the Demised Premises his or their employers and visitors (in common with all other persons having the like right) to go pass and re-pass at all times and for all purposes of access to and egress from the Demised Premises only with or without vehicles (as appropriate) over and along the New Roads (if any) the Communal Areas and Accessways and over and along the passageways corridors and staircases forming part of the common parts of the Building in which the Demised Premises is situated.

Because the vehicle was left outside my garage (but not in a designated parking bay) my argument is that I should be allowed to leave my vehicle there temporarily for the purposes of loading and unloading. Does this sound a bit of a weak case? On the ticket issued the time for the vehicle first being observed and ticket being issued is the same, so they can't claim it was there for any length of time ;-)

Thanks as ever for your time and your help, I do appreciate it.

nosferatu1001

Was the lease not transferred into your name?
Was it there for loading and unloading?

Coupon-mad

Because the vehicle was left outside my garage (but not in a designated parking bay) my argument is that I should be allowed to leave my vehicle there temporarily for the purposes of loading and unloading.

Yep and what about for the time it took to go and get the garage key from indoors?!!! Not parked at all, just accessing your garage. Ahem... course you were.

Does this sound a bit of a weak case?

Nope. Certainly strong enough for court! But POPLA are another kettle of fish.

You will need to show that part/pages of the lease to POPLA (plus any map of the demised area?) and the page that proves that lease relates to THIS flat/house (is not a completely different lease from another place!) then other proof that you are the current resident who has the rights and easements granted to you as stated in that original lease, that has never been varied.

Prove everything with evidence.

MA61

nosferatu1001 wrote: »

Was the lease not transferred into your name?
Was it there for loading and unloading?

Yes, but the lease document is the original one from the 90s with a stamp from the Land Registry on and the name of the original purchaser - does that make sense?

MA61

Coupon-mad wrote: »

Yep and what about for the time it took to go and get the garage key from indoors?!!! Not parked at all, just accessing your garage. Ahem... course you were.

Nope. Certainly strong enough for court! But POPLA are another kettle of fish.

You will need to show that part/pages of the lease to POPLA (plus any map of the demised area?) and the page that proves that lease relates to THIS flat/house (is not a completely different lease from another place!) then other proof that you are the current resident who has the rights and easements granted to you as stated in that original lease, that has never been varied.

Prove everything with evidence.

Thanks this is really helpful and gives me some great pointers for what to add to the appeal document. Does it look ok otherwise please? Or would you need to see the whole finished article to really get an idea? Thanks again

Coupon-mad

Yes go on, show us the whole thing.

MA61

Coupon-mad wrote: »

Yes go on, show us the whole thing.

Here it is in all its glory! I hope it loads okay.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/y0hqsq372z8xbnc/POPLA%20Appeal%20v0.2.docx?dl=0

Coupon-mad

Looks very good!

A typo jumped off the page at me: miniscule should be minuscule.

And I would move your point #1 to last as it's not the strongest point at all.

Maybe make your first point one about BPA Grace periods:

https://www.britishparking.co.uk/write/Documents/AOS/AOS_Code_of_Practice_January_2018.pdf

13 Grace periods
13.1 If a driver is parking without your permission, or at
locations where parking is not normally permitted they
must have the chance to read the terms and conditions
before they enter into the ‘parking contract’ with you. If,
having had that opportunity, they decide not to park but
choose to leave the car park, you must provide them with
a reasonable grace period to leave, as they will not be
bound by your parking contract.

13.2 If the parking location is one where parking is normally
permitted, you must allow the driver a reasonable
grace period in addition to the parking event before
enforcement action is taken. In such instances the grace
period must be a minimum of 10 minutes.

...and to expand on that, you could reiterate your main point that you'd stopped at your garage to take bags indoors and fetch your garage key, and it was impossible to stop anywhere else as the bays were full so you decided to use your garage.

It was clearly not reasonably practicable to expect you to drive out and leave (as it's your own home and you had shopping bags to bring indoors!) and that waiting to gain access past a door, gate or barrier is a 'General Exemption' on-street, as is only reasonable and fair:

http://www.maidstone.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/27055/Designated-Parking-Places-Consolidation-Order-2008.pdf

General Exemptions
19. The restrictions specified in Articles 7, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 and 17 do not apply in respect of a person causing a vehicle to be parked so that a person may board or alight from the vehicle or if the person causing the vehicle to be parked is:-
(d) opening or closing a gate or other barrier at the entrance to premises to which the vehicle is being driven or from which it has emerged if it is not reasonably practicable to cause the vehicle to wait at another place for that purpose;

You can say that, whilst these are on-street exemptions, it is reasonable to expect the BPA to extend the same expectation of their AOS members, as they do with their Local Authority paying members. Such that, someone bringing shopping indoors and fetching their garage key, normal brief activity that might take maybe 3 -5 minutes all told (depending on how close the flat is), should be entitled to rely upon the easements in their lease that specifically allow 'access' including with vehicles and secondly, should be able to rely upon the BPA Grace periods to protect them for up to 10 minutes without predatory enforcement while their back is turned.

MA61

Coupon-mad wrote: »

Looks very good!

A typo jumped off the page at me: miniscule should be minuscule.

And I would move your point #1 to last as it's not the strongest point at all.

Maybe make your first point one about BPA Grace periods:

https://www.britishparking.co.uk/write/Documents/AOS/AOS_Code_of_Practice_January_2018.pdf



...and to expand on that, you could reiterate your main point that you'd stopped at your garage to take bags indoors and fetch your garage key, and it was impossible to stop anywhere else as the bays were full so you decided to use your garage.

It was clearly not reasonably practicable to expect you to drive out and leave (as it's your own home and you had shopping bags to bring indoors!) and that waiting to gain access past a door, gate or barrier is a 'General Exemption' on-street, as is only reasonable and fair:

http://www.maidstone.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/27055/Designated-Parking-Places-Consolidation-Order-2008.pdf



You can say that, whilst these are on-street exemptions, it is reasonable to expect the BPA to extend the same expectation of their AOS members, as they do with their Local Authority paying members. Such that, someone bringing shopping indoors and fetching their garage key, normal brief activity that might take maybe 3 -5 minutes all told (depending on how close the flat is), should be entitled to rely upon the easements in their lease that specifically allow 'access' including with vehicles and secondly, should be able to rely upon the BPA Grace periods to protect them for up to 10 minutes without predatory enforcement while their back is turned.

Thank you so much for taking the time to read the draft and to make these additional suggestions. Point 1 comes first because point 2 seems to refer back to it, but will change as you suggest. I really do appreciate your help and those who have commented on this thread, thanks again.

MA61

Right appeal now submitted, will update here on the outcome.
Thanks again for the help and support.

Not sure if it's linked elsewhere on the forum but found this handy repository of case law on the Parking Prankster site, which I used to support my submission (Jopson and PACE Recovery and Storage cases) because the links in the relevant post of the sticky to those cases were broken:

http://www.parking-prankster.com/case-law.html