Countrywide Parking Management ltd Appeal Denied

baart77

Either I didn't understand something at the begining or I don't explain it clearly here. I have followed the advice that at the appeal stage you don't admit to being a driver as explained in this thread - https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/69906180#Comment_69906180

I thought that we need to stick to this as they said they want to pursue my dad as a keeper and rely on POFA. I don't want to lie. Just not sure if I understand what changes at this stage in comparison to initial appeal? 

My thinking then is,  and I am happy to be corrected - they failed to prove he was the driver, the evidence is insufficient when it comes to photos, there was no grace period applied, they failed to show when the car entered the car park and how long for it was there, the tenancy agreement says nothing about the permit, signage is insufficient and they should have worked on finding a solution without having to go to court.

For the sake of the argument if I was the driver at the time, would it change anything? Please clarify/correct what I am getting wrong. 

Redx

If he was keeper but not the driver , the claimant has to rely on POFA , or fail 

The old defence you found was a keeper but not the driver defence , so not the same as yours. It also had the older statement of truth at the bottom , so showed that it was over 20 months old , because that statement changed just after the pandemic started , meaning your research was badly flawed too !

If he was keeper and driver , either could make him liable , POFA as keeper if complied with , or Driver and POFA is a background topic

POFA makes him liable , regardless of who was driving , if the claimant has complied with POFA , unless he named the driver before the court claim started

I explained about what may happen in court , if asked directly , so why hide it ? It's easy to be asked and then the cat is out of the bag anyway !

I also told you to read the explanation by Bargepole posted a few months ago , it's clear that you have not read it , due to your continued query in the above reply

If the claimant complied with POFA , plus especially if he was the driver , say so , no beating about the bush

Follow the advice by Bargepole and coupon mad , stop wondering , read and digest , like we did

What was done at appeal stage is water under the bridge , in a court claim he could be asked in court if he was the driver , under oath

These companies read this forum , so probably already know and have taken screenshots

baart77

Ok, so can I go with something like that:

 2. It is admitted that the defendant was the driver and registered keeper at the time of the alleged offence but any liability is denied

3. Firstly:

-          The defendant remembers having displayed the permit correctly. The photos of the car were taken at night with a very limited amount of light available and are not a sufficient proof of there not being a permit or that the photos of the car were taken in the location stated in the Notice to Keeper. Some of them can not even be assumed to be photos of defendant's car as the registration plate is either not visible or is impossible to read. There is no proof either that the parking charge was attached to the windscreen or elsewhere on the day of the alleged breach. None of the photos show the parking signs. 

 Secondly:

-          If the claimant alleges that the driver failed to display the permit then the defendant challenges the claimant to prove that sufficient grace period has been applied as per IPC Code of Conduct which Countrywide Parking Management is a member of. The Notice to Keeper does not show the time of entry or exit or the length of time the car was parked there allegedly without the permit displayed. In the further communication received after the alleged incident the claimant alleged that the car was observed at 22.43. It can not be therefore claimed that the driver had been  "allowed a sufficient amount of time to park and read any signs so they may make an informed decision as to whether or not to remain on the site."  

Furthermore:

-          The driver was allowed the right to park by the current occupier and leaseholder, whose tenancy agreement forms primacy of contract and can not be altered by a third party.

o        Defendant’s tenancy agreement says nothing about requirement to display a permit.

o        The parking sign was installed in 2018 while the defendant moved there in 2014 and has parked the car in the residential car park daily.

o        If primacy of contract is disputed by the claimant, then the signage on site needs to be plentiful and easily visible, or no contract can be entered into knowingly by the driver. It clearly is not the case in this situation. There has only ever been one sign, difficult to notice during the day and impossible at night. The claimant has not installed any signage at the entrance to this day. 

Redx

Every paragraph needs a number , starting with 2) the one that says keeper and driver , no matter if there are two or five etc

Le_Kirk

You don't need "firstly", "secondly" or "furthermore" because you are numbering every paragraph.  You do need to set the scene for the judge by stating (for example) it is a residential car park where the defendant has primacy of contract due to the tenancy agreement.  The defendant has no need to display a permit and it was only ever done as a courtesy.  You can then expand upon this in the witness statement when you also supply copy of the tenancy agreement which shows the right to park there.  I do think you need to explain this: -

The driver was allowed the right to park by the current occupier and leaseholder, whose tenancy agreement forms primacy of contract and can not be altered by a third party.

as it is confusing.  Is the defendant a tenant of the property?  Why was the defendant allowed to park there by the current occupier?

baart77

I am sorry, that piece I have just copied and pasted without ammending. It should say  - " the defendant is a tenant there and was allowed to park there as a resident. His tenancy forms primacy of contract and cannot be altered by a third party"

Coupon-mad

Either I didn't understand something at the begining or I don't explain it clearly here. I have followed the advice that at the appeal stage you don't admit to being a driver as explained in this thread - https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/69906180#Comment_69906180

I thought that we need to stick to this as they said they want to pursue my dad as a keeper and rely on POFA. I don't want to lie. Just not sure if I understand what changes at this stage in comparison to initial appeal? 

My thinking then is,  and I am happy to be corrected 

I explained all this already, please re-read my replies from yesterday and I completely covered this for you.  He must be honest and open, a reliable witness at court stage and that means being the admitted driver and giving the Judge the facts.

But his defence is now looking MUCH better!    Much much better now. 

Just add paragraph numbers and re-number the rest of the template below your bit, and you are done, at this stage.   But there will be more work from January onwards.

Please re-read what the first post of the TEMPLATE DEFENCE tells you will happen next (the 12 numbered steps) because what drives us mad is people coming back asking whether to email their DQ N180 (all is explained about that, in the template defence thread).

Also read @bargepole's court process thread that I linked in the NEWBIES thread under the red heading 'IMPORTANT - KNOW WHAT HAPPENS WHEN'.

You will be so prepared and well informed about the next stages, if you read both of those...

baart77

Thank you. Will do. Just one more thing - will I be allowed to assist my dad in court or would he have to do it alone?

Redx

baart77 said:

Thank you. Will do. Just one more thing - will I be allowed to assist my dad in court or would he have to do it alone?

You can assist as a lay representative , as long as you are not a witness

Le_Kirk

Redx said:

baart77 said:

Thank you. Will do. Just one more thing - will I be allowed to assist my dad in court or would he have to do it alone?

You can assist as a lay representative , as long as you are not a witness

........ and he has to be present of course, although it is likely to be a telephone/video hearing.