NCP failed appeal - one wrong digit in ticket

Crooper

Hi all,

I have read lots of posts but I can't quite find the information that I am looking for so I am hoping that someone can help. I think my brain is on overload after reading a lot. I found bits that are useful but not enough to fully write to POPLA.

Okay, so I recently appealed a parking fine at NCP. It wouldn't let me upload a photo of the evidence I had of paying my two hours to park but I told them I could email it to them if they let me know where to send it. However they replied saying my appeal had failed and to contact POPLA if I wanted to take it further.

My main argument for not paying was I was less than a minute over my two hours and they have a 10 minute grace period. The PNC camera showed me entering @ 2.03 & 4 seconds I paid to park @ 2.12 so my ticket ran out @ 4.12 and the PNC shows me leaving @ 4.13 & 7 seconds. So I am well within their grace period of 10 minutes paid ticket wise, but not if they count it from when you enter their car park, but even then I am only over by 4 seconds...I said it was during Christmas period so it was hard to find a space etc.

I have now noticed another reason why my appeal failed possilby, even though they could have asked me to send my ticket as evience and they didn't. I put one wrong digit in a 5 instead of a 6, the numbers on the machine are very close. I am kicking myself I didn't check this before I appealed to NCP, it might have resolved it quicker although a similar poster said they still failed their appeal on this issue. So I have two issues to appeal about.

I am just not sure how to go about it.

The date the letter was sent to me was over 20 days after I parked, I think I saw something that said it had to be sent withing 14 days? So this could be something else I could include in my appeal?

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Many thanks,

C

KeithP

You really should be reading the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread.

Post #3 of that thread gives comprehensive guidance on how to compile a PoPLA appeal.

Can you please show us the full wording of the appeal you sent to NCP?

Did you give away the driver's identity in that appeal?

You need to get away from the idea that you, or the driver, did anything wrong.
It is quite possible, indeed, probable, that sticky keys on the keypad led to the mis-recording of the car's registration number.

Redx

if you have admitted the scenario of you being the driver, then any 14 days period under POFA2012 is a washout (due to blabbing)

the BPA CoP clause #13 talks about grace periods, one before parking , one after, so that aspect of your case seems correct

you need to draft your popla appeal and post it on here for critique

grace periods should be the first part, then no landowner authority, signage etc

the PDT machine could have been faulty , it may be human error, but its for them to prove, and de minimis applies as well

Guys_Dad

https://popla.co.uk/docs/default-source/default-document-library/popla-annual-report-2018.pdf?sfvrsn=0

Download this and quote from both the Grace sections and the miskeying section plus the BPA code of practice re simple miskeying section.

All you need. Nothing else.

Crooper

Hi all,

I thought this has posted last night, but I have just discovered it hasn't due to a link being in it, which I have now removed.

It feels a rubbish response the parts that I added to on the template. I had information overload when I did it & was very tired. I will add in dates etc when it is ready to be sent.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Yes I did admit I was driving...I will see if I can find my appeal email...

All the help was much appreciated, thank you everyone. Although I don't have legal brain, so most of it went over my head. Thanks.

POPLA Verification Code: XXXXXXX
Vehicle Registration: XXXXXXX

I, the registered keeper of this vehicle, received a letter dated … acting as a
notice to the registered keeper. My appeal to the Operator – NCP – was
submitted and acknowledged by the Operator on … and rejected via an
email dated …. I contend that I, as the keeper, am not liable for the alleged
parking charge and wish to appeal against it on the following grounds:

A. Grace Period: BPA Code of Practice – non-compliance 1
B. Sticky keys on the keypad led to the mis-recording of the car's registration
Number, a ticket purchased showing payment had been made to park, thus not parking illegally

A/The BPA’s Code of Practice states (13) that there are two grace periods: one at
the end (of a minimum of 10 minutes) and one at the start.
BPA’s Code of Practice (13.1) states that:
“Your approach to parking management must allow a driver who enters
your car park but decides not to park, to leave the car park within a
reasonable period without having their vehicle issued with a parking
charge notice.”

BPA’s Code of Practice (13.2) states that:
“You should allow the driver a reasonable ‘grace period’ in which to decide
if they are going to stay or go. If the driver is on your land without
permission you should still allow them a grace period to read your signs
and leave before you take enforcement action.”

BPA’s Code of Practice (13.4) states that:
“You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car
park after the parking contract has ended, before you take enforcement
action. If the location is one where parking is normally permitted, the
Grace Period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10
minutes.”

BPA’s Code of Practice (18.5) states that:
“If a driver is parking with your permission, they must have the chance to
read the terms and conditions before they enter into the contract with you.
If, having had that opportunity, they decide not to park but choose to leave
the car park, you must provide them with a reasonable grace period to
leave, as they will not be bound by your parking contract.”

The BPA Code of Practice (13.4) clearly states that the Grace Period to leave the
car park should be a minimum of 10 minutes. Whilst 13.4 does not apply in this
case (it should be made clear - a contract was never entered in to), it is
reasonable to suggest that the minimum of 10 minutes grace period stipulated
in 13.4 is also a “reasonable grace period” to apply to 13.1 and 13.2 of the BPA’s
Code of Practice.

Kelvin Reynolds, Head of Public Affairs and Policy at the British Parking
Association (BPA):

“The BPA’s guidance specifically says that there must be sufficient time for
the motorist to park their car, observe the signs, decide whether they want
to comply with the operator’s conditions and either drive away or pay for a
ticket.”

“No time limit is specified. This is because it might take one person five
minutes, but another person 10 minutes depending on various factors, not
limited to disability.”

Recently (late November 2017) there was a not dissimilar POPLA Appeal (versus
ParkingEye – Tower Road, Newquay) which was successful on the grounds that
the assessor believed 11 minutes was a “reasonable grace period” and that “by
seeking alternate parking arrangements, the appellant has demonstrated that he
did not accept the conditions of the parking contract.”


Finally, some 3 years ago years ago, on 30th July 2015, the minutes of the
Professional Development & Standards Board meeting show that it was formally
agreed by the Board (of BPA members and stakeholders) that the minimum
grace period would be changed in 13.4 of the BPA Code of Practice to read 'a
minimum of eleven minutes':

“Implications of the 10 minute grace period were discussed and the Board
agreed with suggestion by AH that the clause should comply with DfT
guidelines in the English book of by-laws to encourage a single standard.
Board agreed that as the guidelines state that grace periods need to exceed
10 minutes clause 13.4 should be amended to reflect a mandatory 11
minute grace period.”

The recommendation reads:
“Reword Clause 13.4 to ‘If the location is one where parking is normally
permitted, the Grace Period at the end of the parking period should be a
minimum of 11 minutes.”Source....

This shows that the intention of stating vaguely: 'a minimum of ten minutes' in the
current BPA CoP (not a maximum - a minimum requirement) means to any
reasonable interpretation that seconds are de minimis and therefore not taken
into account – certainly an allegation of under eleven minutes (as is the case
here) is perfectly reasonable.

As stated earlier in this section, whilst 13.4 does not apply in this case (as a
contract was never entered in to), it is not unreasonable to suggest that
clarification of this time period in relation to 13.4 also goes some way to clarifying
the terms “reasonable period” and “reasonable grace period” stated in 13.1 and
13.2 respectively of the BPA’s Code of Practice.

If the BPA feel “a minimum of 11 minutes” is a reasonable time period to leave a
car park after a period of parking, it stands to reason that at least the same period
of time is reasonable to also enter a car park, locate (and read) terms and
conditions (in this case in the dark with no lighting), decide not to enter into a
contract and then leave the car park.

It is therefore argued that the duration of visit in question (which NCP
Claim via their PNC was 2 hours 10 minutes and 4 seconds, though the parking ticket time shows that it was 2 hours 1 minute and 4 seconds, I enclose photos below to show this), was well within the grace period, especially given:
A) It was a week before Christmas at the weekend when more people don’t work and would be Christmas shopping, making it harder to find a space due to a busy car park
That signage that was not visible from all parking spots, as there are only signs by the car park entrance on the ground floor, the car was parked on the first floor and the ticket machines are in a somewhat enclosed area located by the doors to the escalators that lead to the shops the car was not parked in front of this area facing it
All factors discussed above serve merely to increase the time taken to:
• Locate an empty parking space
• Locate a sign containing the terms and conditions.
• Read the full terms and conditions during this busy period
• Decipher the information
• Decide how long to park for
• Pay for a ticket in a cramped area full of people queuing to use the three machines to pay for their ticket to park
• Then once returned from the shopping trip, packing up the car, dropping the trolley back off at the trolley bay then walking back to the car
• Then safely leave the car park when many other shoppers were leaving the car park ahead
B: A simple keypad error occurred from such a miniscule keypad used to enter the car registration, the keys must have been sticky leading to the mis-recording of the registration plate. This led to a fine being issued as the PNC camera did not register, I had paid to park. The ticket I offered to send NCP would have clarified that this was a simple error. NCPs form did not allow for the photo of my ticket to be uploaded. In my complaint to them I offered to send it to them if they let me know how, but they did not contact me to ask for this evidence. Therefore, I include it here. This shows that a valid ticket was purchased but that it was an incorrect number plate, it reads **** but it should have read ****, therefore only one digit was incorrect. This shows that a new contract was formed by acceptance of the parking ticket at the time (but with the wrong registration plate). This proves that NCP did not lose out financially they still had the money for me parking my car. Therefore, it seems unfair to charge a £100 fine for not paying to park, when there a ticket to park was purchased.

The POPLA states that in 2017 BPA “sent a message to its operators reminding them to put motorists at the heart of their thinking and to focus on effective car park management rather than mistake punishment.” The wrong digit in the ticket was just this, a mistake. They state that “the parking charge wouldn’t have arisen but for a simple keying error.” They state it should be “a judgement call” made “on what is a simple keying error.” One wrong number shows that it is a simple keying error they say this “is different from deliberately writing a swear word into the keypad (examples of which we have seen)” this would clearly be non-accidental, however one digit wrong on the ticket for this fine clearly shows it was accidental, so judgement should be made that this was an accident and should not be punished.

To conclude, a ticket had been purchased despite the fine being issued by NCP for no ticket being purchased and had NCP had a more effective tool to upload this evidence or should NCP have followed up on my request to send the ticket this matter, could have perhaps been resolved as an accident and the car clearly left well within the grace period taking all matters into consideration, which should invalidate the fine.

Guys_Dad

If you don't know if the ticket is for overstay or miskeying, I suggest you find out and concentrate on that point rather than admitting to POPLA you have 2 separate "transgressions"

Umkomaas

miniscule

Minuscule.

despite the fine

You haven't been fined.

Crooper

Guys Dad, I am not sure they would clarify with me if they have referred me to POPLA?

I am not sure of the technical word to use, charge rather than fine?

Thanks

C

Crooper

Umkomaas, I am not sure what to call it if isn't a fine, a charge?

Thanks

C

MistyZ

I can answer that one Crooper, it is a charge.

Also, not quite sure what you mean in your question to Guys Dad, but you don't get referred to POPLA, you get a POPLA code with the parking company's refusal. You then go to the POPLA website and use that code to appeal to POPLA.

Coupon-mad

I have now noticed another reason why my appeal failed possilby, even though they could have asked me to send my ticket as evience and they didn't.

I put one wrong digit in a 5 instead of a 6, the numbers on the machine are very close. I am kicking myself I didn't check this before I appealed to NCP, it might have resolved it quicker although a similar poster said they still failed their appeal on this issue.

That will be the ONLY issue that the PCN is about.

How do you know the keypad didn't fail or transpose two keys? Why do people always assume it's their own typo/fault?!