Brexit the economy and house prices part 7: Brexit Harder

phillw

Tromking wrote: »

Its only right that Corbyn and indeed McDonnell are confronted with their historical tacit support for Sinn Fein and the aims of its armed wing PIRA.

Weren't those aims a direct result of us invading and stealing their country by force?

I don't condone the IRA & obviously it's hard to separate the two when people want to score points like you are. However the only way to peace was always going to be JC's way, rather than how the Conservatives wanted to play it out.

BikingBud wrote: »

Explain to us the niceties of the difference.

Are you saying that if two distinct groups support the same cause that they can't be distinguished between? Because we know there are some xenophobic leave supporters, what does that say of the rest? Are they xenophobic sympathizers? You can't have your cake and eat it.

scaredofdebt

Conina wrote: »

Telling the house that they are cowards for not tabling a no-confidence vote or allowing an election isn't lying when that is exactly what the house are doing, and it is because they know that their jobs wouldn't survive an election so Boris is right and you are, as usual, wrong.

They aren't "cowards". They know if no deal goes ahead it is going to be potentially damaging to the country and want to avoid that at all costs. They also know Boris can decide when an election is held ie after October, so they want to avoid that. They also know if Boris doesn't deliver his "do or die" Brexit then his "popularity" will be trashed.

So they are playing a waiting game for now, ie being clever, not cowards.

qwert_yuiop

phillw wrote: »

Weren't those aims a direct result of us invading and stealing their country by force?

I don't condone the IRA & obviously it's hard to separate the two when people want to score points like you are. However the only way to peace was always going to be JC's way, rather than how the Conservatives wanted to

No. Poor old Corbyn got thoroughly duped by the ira as well. While he was over here supposedly offering support for their campaign, Adams and mcguinness were pleading with the government for some kind of peace talks to get them off the hook they’d hung themselves on. The ira was so riddled by informers working for the police that even the head of their supposed head of punishment of informers was a police agent.

qwert_yuiop

triathlon wrote: »

Try reading about the black and tans and even the British occupation during the famine when there was still plenty off food in Eire as people died. But have you ever even read a book on the subject you seem to know so much about,

Yes, indeed. A few years back, Taoiseach Bertie ahern’s ancestors were shown to have shipped corn out of cork during the famine. Of course the poor died of starvation in the famine - once the disease started, even the wealthy succumbed. Round here, even Lord Lurgan died of typhus.
I’ve often wondered how the ancestors of today’s Irish people (including me) survived when a million didn’t. Probably brutal self interest and contempt for others, similar to today’s dismissive attitudes to famines in far away places involving people we don’t know and don’t care about.

Most Black and Tans were Irish. Puts a different spin on it, doesn’t it?

It wasn’t an occupation - we were part of the uk, with MPs in Westminster and the same voting rights as the English. Home rule was coming, whether we liked it or not, delayed as it was by the First World War. We’d now be like Canada or New Zealand, or maybe Australia, having a debate about removing the queen as head of state.



Oh and no one ever calls it Eire. I know that’s the word used on the stamps and coins, but they just don’t.

BikingBud

Originally Posted by BikingBud

Explain to us the niceties of the difference.

phillw wrote: »

Are you saying that if two distinct groups support the same cause that they can't be distinguished between? Because we know there are some xenophobic leave supporters, what does that say of the rest? Are they xenophobic sympathizers? You can't have your cake and eat it.

Now we are going well-off topic here but you cast comment and do not support it with any fact.

I wanted you to explain the difference between the IRA and Sinn Fein, perhaps the nuances are too complex for leavers! But instead you avoid the question and continue with the unsubstantiated claims of xenophobia:rotfl:

lvader

triathlon wrote: »

That's why commonsense never prevails with people like you in the world, you are presented with an argument so you turn it into something else before you continue, typical Brexit mentality, cannot understand pure logic or truth, just hate, revenge and destruction.

Try reading about the black and tans and even the British occupation during the famine when there was still plenty off food in Eire as people died. But have you ever even read a book on the subject you seem to know so much about,

You can condemn the actions of the IRA and it's supporters and be sympathetic to many of the causes that they where supposedly fighting for, there is no contradiction there.

phillw

qwert_yuiop wrote: »

No. Poor old Corbyn got thoroughly duped by the ira as well. While he was over here supposedly offering support for their campaign, Adams and mcguinness were pleading with the government for some kind of peace talks to get them off the hook they’d hung themselves on.

So he met with Sinn Fein when both he and they wanted peace talks & that is somehow evidence he supports the IRA? Sounds like a leap.

lvader

scaredofdebt wrote: »

They aren't "cowards". They know if no deal goes ahead it is going to be potentially damaging to the country and want to avoid that at all costs. They also know Boris can decide when an election is held ie after October, so they want to avoid that. They also know if Boris doesn't deliver his "do or die" Brexit then his "popularity" will be trashed.

So they are playing a waiting game for now, ie being clever, not cowards.

They could win a vote of no confidence and form a government to delay, there is even enough time to call a general election. But no, that would be too easy, they wont do it because it would be political suicide.

Tromking

phillw wrote: »

Weren't those aims a direct result of us invading and stealing their country by force?
I don't condone the IRA & obviously it's hard to separate the two when people want to score points like you are. However the only way to peace was always going to be JC's way, rather than how the Conservatives wanted to play it out.

The Irish and British issue is way more complicated than those nasty Brits invading and stealing a country by force, Ireland was for decades a fully functional part of the Union and like every other country in the Union it sent MP's to Westminster. Sinn Fein is the political arm of the Provo's not because I'm trying to score points, but because its a fact.
As usual your anti Tory bias or perhaps in this case you lack of knowledge, has led to a place where you have failed to recognise that John Major as PM played a pivotal role in enabling the peace talks to take place which then lead on to the GFA under Tony Blair.
I may be mis-remembering but I do recall that in Irish Republican circles JC was seen at the time as being a bit of a 'useful idiot' rather than a conduit for the future peace process.

phillw

lvader wrote: »

They could win a vote of no confidence and form a government to delay, there is even enough time to call a general election. But no, that would be too easy, they wont do it because it would be political suicide.

There isn't enough time to call a general election, the timing Boris suggested meant we could easily have not had a government during the EU negotiations or even by October 31st.

They could call a no confidence vote now, but it's not in their interest. So why would they? Just because Boris is inciting hatred?

Tromking wrote: »

The Irish and British issue is way more complicated than those nasty Brits invading and stealing a country by force, Ireland was for decades a fully functional part of the Union and like every other country in the Union it sent MP's to Westminster. Sinn Fein is the political arm of the Provo's not because I'm trying to score points, but because its a fact.
As usual your anti Tory bias or perhaps in this case you lack of knowledge, has led to a place where you have failed to recognise that John Major as PM played a pivotal role in enabling the peace talks to take place which then lead on to the GFA under Tony Blair.
I may be mis-remembering but I do recall that in Irish Republican circles JC was seen at the time as being a bit of a 'useful idiot' rather than a conduit for the future peace process.

All I see is a load of hand waving over facts to try to pull together a point.

If JC supports the IRA then you support Tommy Robinson as you both voted to leave.

Yeah the situation in Ireland is complicated, we invaded in 1169 & we've handled it increasingly badly ever since.

In your eagerness to prove a point you've failed completely to understand that I never once said that JC was instrumental to anything, I am well aware of John Major and Tony Blairs involvement. However that doesn't instantly mean that because JC wasn't able to achieve it, that he must therefore support the IRA.

I guess you think that insulting JC would upset me, I'm not a Labour supporter. I was a conservative voter, until the loons took over.