Brexit the economy and house prices part 7: Brexit Harder

mayonnaise

cogito wrote: »

Except that the UK government is neither populist nor anti immigration. You see - you’re at it again.

Incidentally, you also confuse EU-phobia with Europhobia. They are not the same thing.

I'm afraid you lost touch with what's actually happening in the UK posting from your retirement abode in sunny Greece.

cogito

Herzlos wrote: »

I can't get my head around statements like this, since it only seems to be Leavers who want to suspend democracy to get their way (allowing a PM to make a brexit deal without parliamentary approval, removal of any pro-EU MPs, suspending Parliament so they can't vote against something).
All leave want is actual democracy, and a confirmatory check that we actually want what's about to happen before it's too late.

Indeed. All leave do want is actual democracy.

It's utterly bizarre and dishonest for remain supporting MPs to stand on manifestos supported by 80% of those who voted in the last election to vote for Article 50 to be triggered and then voted for legislation to implement it to then strive with every sinew to prevent the UK from leaving. It's precisely because of their rejection of the WA that we are now in a position where leaving with no deal has become increasingly possible.

It is even more absurd that they insist that we don’t leave without a deal when they have rejected the only deal on offer three times and the EU has very clearly indicated that the WA is not up for renegotiation.

They should hang their heads in shame but they still believe that they know best.

cogito

mayonnaise wrote: »

I'm afraid you lost touch with what's actually happening in the UK posting from your retirement abode in sunny Greece.

Back in the UK, old boy.

Malthusian

phillw wrote: »

We're only in a relatively stable decline at the moment because companies have been promised brexit in name only, that we'd still have a free trade agreement etc. Even Boris said until recently it was a million to one possibility, the decline is likely to accelerate. The majority are still holding on for October 31st before pulling the plug on the UK.

Has Remain decided what the "Brexit hasn't happened yet" story will be in 2021 when the stockmarket and the UK economy still haven't collapsed?

"The man-eating lions are still stuck in a queue of lorries at Calais"?

"Companies only haven't fled the UK because they thought it would be impossible to book a plane ticket"?

"Everyone who is buying UK equities at market value is racist"?

Herzlos

If we leave and there isn't a recession, I'll be quite happy to apologize for being wrong.

cogito wrote: »

Indeed. All leave do want is actual democracy.

So why are you so scared of actual democracy?

Since you're so keen on democracy, how do you feel about Gina Miller ensuring Parliamentary democracy?
Or of Johnson threatening to prorogue Parliament to force a no deal?
Or having a confirmatory referendum to see what the will of the people is, over 3 years later and we know more about what we're looking at?

Malthusian

Herzlos wrote: »

If we leave and there isn't a recession, I'll be quite happy to apologize for being wrong.

There will be a recession at some point as that's an inevitability, unless you still believe that Gordon Brown abolished boom and bust. A prediction that "there will be a recession" is meaningless. If the next recession starts in 2024 there will probably be isolated pockets of die-hard Remainers who say "Aha! Now the long-term effects of Brexit are coming home to roost just like we always said! Serve you chavs right!" Like marooned Japanese soldiers still fighting WW2.

What we are talking about is the prediction in 2016 that voting Leave would directly cause a recession, stockmarket crash, mass unemployment and Emergency Budget. Which didn't happen. Brexit is priced in.

Re-running a vote in the hope that the populace give the right answer this time is not democracy. It's not even dictatorship, or if it is it's very ineffective dictatorship.

In any case if Remain thought winning a second referendum was a viable option they would have held one. Until a month ago it was their call. If Boris was feeling mean he could announce a confirmatory referendum and really rub Remainers' noses in it, but that's not cricket.

Herzlos

Even Farage was talking about a 2nd referendum to shut up the Remainers, which he's gone quiet on for some reason. Same for Reese-Mogg actually, who'd suggested a dual referendum - one to leave and one to decide on how to leave once the options were prepared. He's gone quiet there too.


As for the recession happening at some point, sure. On the converse, I'm positive that if Brexit is bad, the Brexiteers that don't go quiet will claim it had nothing to do with Brexit, just like did with the "pound was overvalued and is just correcting itself" thing.


My point was that if Brexit is a roaring success, then I know I'm at least prepared to admit doubting it. I'd really, really, love to be proven wrong.

cogito

Herzlos wrote: »

Even Farage was talking about a 2nd referendum to shut up the Remainers, which he's gone quiet on for some reason. Same for Reese-Mogg actually, who'd suggested a dual referendum - one to leave and one to decide on how to leave once the options were prepared. He's gone quiet there too.

How very selective. What about the hundreds of other MPs who promised to respect the result of the referendum and have still spent the last three years doing the opposite? Soubry, Grieve and Cooper just for starters.

cogito

Herzlos wrote: »

So why are you so scared of actual democracy?

Since you're so keen on democracy, how do you feel about Gina Miller ensuring Parliamentary democracy?
Or of Johnson threatening to prorogue Parliament to force a no deal?
Or having a confirmatory referendum to see what the will of the people is, over 3 years later and we know more about what we're looking at?

I'm not at all scared of democracy. It's just that you and I have different views of what it is. I'm perfectly happy for the likes of Gina Miller to take legal action to ensure parliamentary democracy it backfired on her somewhat though, didn’t it and her pretension that it was nothing to do with stopping Brexit turned out to be a lie.

And Johnson hasn’t threatened to prorogue Parliament. Can you show that he did?

And why should we have a second referendum when the first one hasn’t been implemented? If you had one and leave won again, would you accept it or would you still want another and another until you got the result you wanted? Is that your definition of democracy?

Zero_Gravitas

Just in case anyone was in any doubt about just what an egregious human being Aaron Banks is:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49358108