Brexit the economy and house prices part 7: Brexit Harder

Thrugelmir

Takedap wrote: »

Because there isn't a "will of the people". Unless you truly believe that all 17.4M voted leave for exactly the same reason.


Do you honestly think that leaving without a deal would (will?) make them all happy?

The issues lie far deeper than simply the EU I suspect. The world is changing at a pace. Western Europe and North America is facing major challenges on several fronts. While for many their standard of living is coming under intense pressure. New era on the horizon.

movilogo

If there is an election and Farage can set up Brexit party properly by then, all Leave votes will go to him and Remain votes will be split among other parties.



Both Labour and Conservative will lose seats.


Unless, TM breaks parliament and make the default No Deal route - in that way Tories can still attract some good number of votes.

phillw

Arklight wrote: »

The Brexiter's cheeks sting with the salty hot tears of humiliation!

It was the leave conservative & DUP voters which defeated the government.

Losing all those seats in the last election is a constant source of problems for TM.

BikingBud wrote: »

There was a fair vote it was called a referendum.

All that illegality doesn't bother you?

BikingBud wrote: »

Would you complain about general election manifesto and also say you weren't informed?

I've never felt the need to, but I know people do.

BikingBud wrote: »

I could troll if you wanted but I am trying to hold a reasonable discussion but you keep veering off into aggressive, vindictive, snipes and avoiding the real subject.

I must have missed that, maybe you don't realise how you come across?

BikingBud wrote: »

Why are Parliament, not May, unable to deliver the will of the people?

The reason Labour aren't supporting TM deal is because it upsets both the leave and remain voters. Any leave voter who wants TM deal to be passed is setting themselves up for disappointment, that doesn't help us at all.

Parliament haven't been given much of a chance beyond voting repeatedly for TM deal. The first round of indicative votes weren't free either, so their hands were tied. So more indicative votes, maybe this time they won't whip.

TM deal vs remain put to a referendum would probably get passed by parliament. DUP wouldn't agree to it, despite wanting to leave as they prefer EU membership over the deal. But I'm sure enough people would support it, if what the leave campaign are telling us is true. I find it odd that people are so scared of it.

The democratically elected MPs aren't going to choose a damaging brexit and there isn't really any kind of consensus as to how to move forward. I've been trying to explain for a while that a second referendum is more advantageous to leavers than remain voters.

BikingBud

Zero_Gravitas wrote: »

This isn’t mine, but today of all days it struck as me as a particularly eloquent voice in an ocean of vitriol:

“In response to people claiming that their Leave vote ‘won’t have counted’ if Brexit doesn’t happen in the next few weeks.......

Your vote and 17.4 million others’ votes absolutely counted. We have heard hundreds of times that your views are the will of the people.

Whereas I, and 16.1 million others ceased to be part of ‘the people’ of this country in the governments’ eyes. No you are still part of the people but in the minority, the outcome should satisfy the wishes of the majority

For nearly 3 years Parliament [STRIKE]Teresa May and her government[/STRIKE] have been trying to implement what you wanted, but no one seems to want[STRIKE]be able[/STRIKE] to agree on what that was, days away from departure. Soft Brexit, hard Brexit, customs union, single market, Canada, Norway etc ....??
Due to constant bickering snivelling, back biting and lying by our MPs [STRIKE]T[/STRIKE]the simple Brexit as promised[STRIKE]s[/STRIKE] certainly looked nothing like the withdrawal agreement that is on the table now. This deal suffered the biggest defeat in parliamentary history (and the 4th biggest next time round!) and even the Brexit secretary who was involved in [STRIKE]negotiating[/STRIKE] presenting the shambles[STRIKE] it,[/STRIKE] resigned over it because he didn’t like it(!)
And [STRIKE]crashing out[/STRIKE] leaving with No Deal [STRIKE]was also not what was promised, and[/STRIKE] is not supported by the buffoons we call upon to do our bidding in parliament.

The shambolic self-centred and petulant behaviour of all our politicians in not delivering upon the Leave vote has led Great Britain to a place where:

- Children in local schools have had to leave the country they were born in because their families were made to feel so unwelcome Scaremongering
- MPs receive credible death threats for voting in the way they believe would benefit the country (not to mention Jo Cox being killed for supporting the EU) Scaremongering
- People are terrified of ‘immigrants’ despite them being net contributors to our economy, working in our NHS etc Scaremongering
- We are having to honour an act of law passed by Parliament [STRIKE]advisory referendum that Teresa May knows was won due an illegal campaign, and was based heavily on lies[/STRIKE]. Shock horror politicians lie!
- We are a laughing stock around the world as they all look on in morbid fascination at how much more self harm we can do due to the shambolic self-centred and petulant behaviour of all our politicians But it’s ok, because Trump and Putin think we are doing the right thing!
- We have a shambolic self-centred and petulant Parliament [STRIKE]government[/STRIKE] that thinks it knows best, without being prepared to listen to the people What like my mate Joe down the pub? who actually know what the effects are likely to be to businesses, the economy, the NHS etc - because ‘we are all sick of experts’!
- No one (really ?)is even suggesting that Brexit will benefit our country anymore, just that we have to carry on because we passed a law supporting[STRIKE]it is[/STRIKE] the will of the people. No it's because the persistent, shambolic, self-centred and petulant behaviour of all our politicians in undermining the Country in every possible manner.
- Real issues affecting our country are being completely ignored and underfunded because [STRIKE]the government[/STRIKE] of the shambolic self-centred and petulant behaviour of our MPs who are frustrating the will of the people and not delivering [STRIKE]is totally caught up in this mess of[/STRIKE] Brexit.
- Businesses have left the UK, and investment has been removed as we are no longer seen as a good place to do business. Because the shambolic, self-centred and petulant behaviour of our MPs who are frustrating any reasonable opportunity to understand how the post Brexit rules may give them scope to invest and expand their business
- Undermining the peace treaty in Northern Ireland is a price worth paying to honour the will of the people. Scaremongering
- The country is so divided and people are so full of hatred (divisive scaremongering) because they are insular and self-centred and principally against democracy despite the fact that they all willingly took [STRIKE] we were asked to take [/STRIKE]part in a referendum to try and stop the influence of the all pervading EU growing beyond our control[STRIKE]infighting in the Conservative party.[/STRIKE]
- Parliament seem to think peace, unity, cooperation, and working together to deliver the will of the people is not something they need to worry about. [STRIKE]seen as a bad thing, and we [/STRIKE]They are arrogant enough to think the they can ignore the wishes of the electorate and that they have been given the [STRIKE]we will be more[/STRIKE] power[STRIKE]ful[/STRIKE] to go[STRIKE]ing[/STRIKE] it alone. (Despite currently being the 3rd most powerful member of the biggest trading bloc in the world!)
- Parliament destroyed democracy [STRIKE]apparently ended [/STRIKE]in [STRIKE]June[/STRIKE] March 2019[STRIKE]6[/STRIKE].

[STRIKE]They[/STRIKE] Parliament have tried for 3 years to frustrate delivery of Brexit in contradiction to [STRIKE]honour[/STRIKE] your vote. And [STRIKE]But[/STRIKE] it is clear now that what [STRIKE]was[/STRIKE] they promised they are not willing to [STRIKE]is not[/STRIKE] deliver[STRIKE]able[/STRIKE].

So what now - carry on regardless - because it is the will of the people? Yes, deliver Brexit
Ask the people again now we know what the deal will actually look like? Do we know? What flavour will it be today, I have heard of so many varieties!
Or admit that at the moment, we cannot find a version of Brexit that is better for us than our current EU membership. Based upon who's metrics?So we stop, take stock, and go back to dealing with real issues in our country, that are not the EU’s fault, but are the fault of successive governments’ own policies. And that's the ever present problem with our politicians, they frustrate and create problems but seldom deliver.

Those that still want to leave the EU are welcome to then come up with a workable plan that the majority of people will support, and we can try again.

If we have a new referendum it doesn’t mean your last vote didn’t count. No! It has been steamrolled due to the ineffective actions of Parliament. Your vote has been the main driving force behind most of the government’s decisions for nearly 3 years. What decisions are those? All we have seen is Parliament frustrating at every turn of the handle. Your vote in the referendum has probably had more influence on this country than any other vote you’ve ever made.

A new referendum isn’t about overturning the old one, but having a fresh vote on what is available now - which was not available then. So no Brexit then?

A new referendum means that democracy has been trampled [STRIKE]is in action[/STRIKE], allowing a new generation of voters to have a say, allowing people to change their minds based on changing information available 3 years on and hopefully making sure that we do not let the Brexiteers have a majority again. Or to not change their mind - that’s Ok too. You will be able to vote again for the option you consider to be the best option.”

Another perspective just different vitriol

Anyway sorted that for you!

Mr_Costcutter

Arklight wrote: »

The Brexiter's cheeks sting with the salty hot tears of humiliation!

How they have gloated these past years.

How they have puffed their chests!

And now they collapse like soufflee.

The truth of the matter is that is how you would hope Brexiteers would feel or behave. The reality is that your comments couldn't be further from the truth.

phillw

BikingBud wrote: »

Anyway sorted that for you!

Whatever point you made was lost in the way you posted.

The majority is shifting to remain & requires another vote to prove it.

We just need to get all the EU citizens who live here and contribute to the country a right to vote first, I find it abhorrent they were denied the first time round. Universal suffrage!

They can vote in council elections, but not national elections. It is an absolute disgrace, they are people too.

Expats bans on voting are being over turned already

Crashy_Time

BikingBud wrote: »

I am not interested in what's best for Labour or the Conservatives and I keep repeating that's the fundamental issue with Brexit. People think it's about the 2 parties and it isn't.

People of all political persuasions for whatever reasons they had; not all racism, not all xenophobia, not all stupid, not all rich, not all poor, decided that they no longer wanted to be part of European Union and therefore they gave their vote in a referendum accordingly. A due democratic process.

The face that self serving wasters in Parliament cannot deliver is absolutely outrageous and they should all be sacked.

I asked https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=75637859&postcount=2126 but nobody answered most just continued to provide spout vile froth.

Revoke Article 50, 2nd ref or GE without actually leaving first all = the two main parties getting hammered as the Brexit vote goes to a Farage/Brexit protest party, the only way out for Labour/Tory now is a No Deal exit. Best bet for HPC is No Deal followed by Corbyn government.

Crashy_Time

movilogo wrote: »

If there is an election and Farage can set up Brexit party properly by then, all Leave votes will go to him and Remain votes will be split among other parties.



Both Labour and Conservative will lose seats.


Unless, TM breaks parliament and make the default No Deal route - in that way Tories can still attract some good number of votes.

Yep, and who do Remainers vote for now anyway, both parties campaigned to uphold the Ref. result?

coastline

Looking at today and the two main parties, Tory and Labour , the result was in favour of the deal. Yes of course it doesn't matter but here goes. In favour Tory 277 + 5 Lab = 282 . Against Tory 34 + 234 Lab = 268 . So the Others were mostly against. What next who knows but I'm thinking the Kenneth Clarke customs deal will swing it ? Thats if it gets a chance ?
Don't see another referendum but I'm sure JC will be wearing his footy scarf at Glastonbury ready for then chanting his name. That'll swing it all those new voters making it 55-45 remain. Queer old do !
Many people will give up voting after this especially the older ones. I've heard plenty say that already.

phillw

coastline wrote: »

So the Others were mostly against. What next who knows but I'm thinking the Kenneth Clarke customs deal will swing it ? Thats if it gets a chance ?
Don't see another referendum but I'm sure JC will be wearing his footy scarf at Glastonbury ready for then chanting his name.

From what MPs have been saying on TV they mostly hate the idea of signing up to a blind brexit which in time is likely to be unpopular with both leave and remain voters, without the electorate taking some form of responsibility over.

If TM had added a referendum in there then it would have gotten past bercow without gutting the WA and it would have gained support from the opposition. Especially in light of TM departure and being replaced with Bojo, Gove or someone even worse.

coastline wrote: »

Many people will give up voting after this especially the older ones. I've heard plenty say that already.

Pity they couldn't have done it earlier. I think a lot of parents and grand parents have sealed their fate when it comes to being put into a home or withdrawing care.