House training question...

happymoneysaver79

Georgina wrote: »

Hi happymoneysaver,

Please don't think that your dog does this through spite or because he's displeased with you leaving. Dogs don't think like that - it really is because he is anxious that he has been left.

When toilet training, there is no benefit in 'telling the dog off' unless it is at the precise moment the dog goes. Reprimanding him when you return home will only make him more anxious - he'll know your cross about something, but will not associate it with the accident/s he's had. In fact, it's likely that being told off when you return (if I have understood your post correctly) will only increase his anxiety and the accidents. You leave the house, and he doesn't like being left, so feels anxious and when you do come back, you're always cross about something, but he doesn't know what, making him more anxious.It's much better to just say hello to the dog, and clear up the mess without any fuss, even popping the dog outside while you do so (so he can't pick up on your feelings).

It's a good idea to alter your routine (when leaving the house) though, and also to leave the radio/tv on. You could also leave by a different door if it is logistically possible. You could also try a DAP (Dog Appeasing Pheromone) Diffuser, and/or activity toys (like Kongs, Treat Balls etc).

You might be able to find some advice on the forums on DogPages. There are many people on there who are experienced (and often qualified) dog trainers, who train using dog friendly methods.

Georgie

Thanks for the advice, I have read countless books on the subject and have taken advice from a well known (celeb) dog trainer- but as I said - before I have chance to tell him off! I dont tell him off and I do clean the mess without making a fuss and I don't need to remove the dog from the area because he has already gone out through his dog flap - but I disagree with the notion that dogs don't know when they have done wrong, he is a very clever little dog otherwise how would you explain this senario:
I am in the house, I go upstairs to get some laundry from the bedrooms, he has acess to the whole house but he chooses to stay downstairs and poo in the hall, as I come downstairs and before I even see what he has done, he has bommed out of the dog flap - conclusion: clever but naughty little doggy. Also who says that dogs don't assosiate a telling off with the thing that they have done wrong? because as far as I am aware no one has ever managed to have a conversation with a dog. :rotfl:

Raksha

'Celeb' dog trainers are often celebs first and dog trainers second.........

Anyway, your dog works on body language, it's his first language if you like, and he's very good at it, because he can tell by your body language that you are about to tell him off. This is probably adding to his stress while you are away, which makes the urinating a viscious circle - he doesn't often make the connection between the puddle you appear to be cross about, and what he did 10 mins ago.

If you think dogs know why you are cross, try tearing up a piece of paper infront of the dog, leave it on the floor and leave the room, then come back again and act as if you've just discovered it and aren't happy - what does your dog do? Does he greet you as normal? Or does he make himself scarce (even though it was nothing to do with him).

happymoneysaver79

Raksha wrote: »

'Celeb' dog trainers are often celebs first and dog trainers second.........

Anyway, your dog works on body language, it's his first language if you like, and he's very good at it, because he can tell by your body language that you are about to tell him off. This is probably adding to his stress while you are away, which makes the urinating a viscious circle - he doesn't often make the connection between the puddle you appear to be cross about, and what he did 10 mins ago.

If you think dogs know why you are cross, try tearing up a piece of paper infront of the dog, leave it on the floor and leave the room, then come back again and act as if you've just discovered it and aren't happy - what does your dog do? Does he greet you as normal? Or does he make himself scarce (even though it was nothing to do with him).

The celeb was Victoria Stilwell who was I beleive an actress before beoming a dog trainer but from what I have seen her methods tend to work. I feel as though I keep repeating myself here but as I said before, I don't tell him off, as soon as I open the front door / come down the stairs he shoots out of the dog flap! From working with horses I am well aware that animals and in particular dogs respond to your body language and I have always had this in mind when training my dog, you may argue that a pattern has emerged from the early days when I did appear unhappy when there was a big steaming turd on my floor, but for over a year he has been doing this with no reaction from me. It aslo doesn't happen every time I go out, but quite often. Also as I earlier mentioned, I don't even have to leave the house to receive my supprise parcel. Just tried the paper thing with him, I shut him in the kitchen , put the paper down came back 10 mins later pointed at the paper, said bad paper etc (how daft do you feel?) and he practically knocked me over with excitement! I don't know. I do appreciate your help but this might just be one dog who can't be helped.

Raksha

No, you're supposed to put the paper down infront of him.......

If you've worked with horses, you'll know they can be like elephants too - they never forget, and if your dog is the sensitive type, it can take just a few repetitions.

The other alternative could be that he's not actually suffering with any kind of anxiety, but just taking advantage of the opportunity to do something he really likes, but can't do when people are around (maybe learnt in his first home through poor housetraining and being punished for producing a poo infront of people).

Have you throught about making a recording of his activity while you are gone? It would give you a good idea of his stress levels. Also, will he eat while you aren't there? If he is genuinely stressed, he possibly won't eat.

I'm sorry but when you use a phrase like 'as I come in he shoots out of the dog flap before I can tell him off.' It does rather sound as if you would tell him off if only he'd hang around (which he's not inclined to do for obvious reasons).

supermezzo

happymoneysaver79 wrote: »

Thanks for the advice, I have read countless books on the subject and have taken advice from a well known (celeb) dog trainer- but as I said - before I have chance to tell him off! I dont tell him off and I do clean the mess without making a fuss and I don't need to remove the dog from the area because he has already gone out through his dog flap - but I disagree with the notion that dogs don't know when they have done wrong, he is a very clever little dog otherwise how would you explain this senario:
I am in the house, I go upstairs to get some laundry from the bedrooms, he has acess to the whole house but he chooses to stay downstairs and poo in the hall, as I come downstairs and before I even see what he has done, he has bommed out of the dog flap - conclusion: clever but naughty little doggy. Also who says that dogs don't assosiate a telling off with the thing that they have done wrong? because as far as I am aware no one has ever managed to have a conversation with a dog. :rotfl:

Therefore, you're out of his sight....he possibly hasn't made the link that you are still in the house.
Do you reward him for going in the correct place? If not, how does he associate going outside to the loo as a good thing to do?
And I, and I'm sure many others on here will agree with me, do have a conversation with my dog throughout the day - He is talking to you, even if you're not sure how to listen.

tankgirl1

hiya all

i recently got a border collie pup, after my old lady passed away. the pup was from a farm, and was kept in an outbuilding. she's proving an absolute nightmare to house train! (i think i was spoilt with my old dog, as when she was a pup she took to house training straight away, and never had any accidents)

pup is just going wherever she is. ive tried putting newspaper down, but she just rips it up :rolleyes: if i catch her in the act she gets a stern 'no', and either put on the newspaper or took outside. the problem is that a) the minute you tell her off she starts wriggling and jumping up at you (meaning she spreads it everywhere!), and b) when i put her outside shes more interested in trying to escpae from the garden than going to the loo.

if i dont catch her in the act, i just clean it up with the minimum of fuss.

please help!!:o

edited to add i'm giving her plenty of oppurtunity to go outside, and am trying to get her into a routine as far as this is concerned. thankfully she seems to have taken to the lead very well so far, so im able to take her out for walks too, but as i said, when shes outside, going to the loo is the last thing shes interested in doing!

tankgirl1

hi again!

after a bit more reading, i have decided to crate train her - I've just ordered a crate off ebay- should be here tomorrow- yay! :T

thanks

tg1

JennyW_2

I'm afraid with a pup it's gonna take time and patience. It wont happen over night.

What you need to do is take the pup out every half or hour or so into the garden. If he doesn't go then fine, bring him back in, if he does, then make a massive, and I mean a MASSIVE fuss of him, lots of praise and nice words or even a treat.

Your pup will soon catch on that to go outside is a good thing, however you need to be patient. If you take him outside 10 times and he doesn't go, you must still continue to take him out, you may have to make it every 10 or 20 minutes if he's that unpredictable. It will happen because he's a collie and he's intelligent. You need to understand that it's been ok for him to go whenever he likes because that's all he's ever known. I took on a 3 year old greyhound who lived in kennels all her life. The system above worked for her within a few days.

When you're happy this is working, then you can associate a word like "have a wee". I taught my greyhound this. You say this whilst they are "in the act" so to speak. He will then associate this word with going for a wee. Handy when it's a bed time wee late at night.

tankgirl1

thanks jenny - as i said i was definately spoilt with my old pooch- she was just so easy to train in every respect.

JennyW_2

tankgirl1 wrote: »

thanks jenny - as i said i was definately spoilt with my old pooch- she was just so easy to train in every respect.

I'm sure you and he will be fine. Collies are so intelligent