For those who think we had it easy...

115K

I have already expressed my view about FTB's earlier but can I just say that I think quite a few people on here are making generalisations/ stereotypical comments about age.

I think its is safe to say that some people had it harder than others in past decades but that it does seem very difficult for FTB now no matter what their age.

I mean not all FTB are young people, some might just be people who enjoyed the freedom of renting but didn't forsee the house prices spiralling out if control and now find it almost impossible to buy.

I overheard a young couple in their 30's on the tube talking the other day and they worked in Canary Wharf and obviously earnt quite good money (yes I am nosy:p) and they said they didn't buy in West London a few years back and went to Germany to work out there for their company (nosy I told you:o ) and when they came back prices had risen from £300,000 to over £1 million for a house.

meanmachine_2

Also, one final point, does no one find it ironic that the original poster is trying to convince FTBers to buy now, by comparing today to the last time affordability reached its lowest ever point? During the early stages of the last crash?!!

Surely the OP should be advising others NOT to put themselves in such dire straits.

Or am I missing something?!

Lavendyr

Sapphire wrote: »

Well, I can remember buying my first one-bedroom flat in the early 80s (I was only allowed to buy on 2 1/2 times salary) and then really struggling to pay the mortgage every month.

Whereas now, you can't even find houses that are priced at 2.5 times salary.

Sapphire wrote: »

At that time the majority of people didn't even think of buying property until they were in their late twenties or even early thirties. Nowadays it seems that as soon as kids leave college they are desperate to get on the property 'ladder'.

I honestly don't know what kind of people you're talking about, but this is just not true for the vast, vast majority of people and I suspect you'll find that most peoples' experience is completely the opposite of what you describe. Many people today cannot think of buying a house until they are in their thirties - the average FTB age has jumped dramatically. When my sister was my age (12 years ago) she and her OH had bought their first house, a 3-bed semi in a nice area, for around £50k - not even 2x their joint salaries. My OH and I are mid-twenties and late-twenties respectively, earn 50k a year between us, and we would not be able to find a *one-bed flat* in that same area for less than 3x our joint salaries today. As it is, we'll probably not be able to buy for another five years, unless the market corrects to bring it closer to wage inflation.

And the unfortunate young people who *are* desperate to get on the property ladder often feel that way because everyone has rammed into their heads for the last few years that "house prices are always rising" and "you've got to buy soon or you'll never be able to afford it" and "there won't be a crash like last time" and "you've made nothing of yourself until you own property" - oh, and not forgetting "by the time you retire you won't get a state pension, so you better make sure you've got a roof over your head". How many homeowners would want the bubble to burst? Keep pushing up the lending multiples, keep hooking in the FTBs using whatever fancy-sounding schemes you can and keep them thinking they've "got to buy now.

Sapphire wrote: »

And 20 years ago most people certainly didn't spend in the way they do nowadays, but lived much more frugally.

I really detest generalisations like these. How can you possibly make such a generalisation? Yes, some people do spend more, they spend on credit, they borrow...but not everyone.

Sapphire wrote: »

There wasn't all the advertising that there is in your face everywhere nowadays, and most people didn't look on vacuous celebrities as their gods and try to live their lifestyles – many of their heroes actually deserved being regarded as such.

Yes, we do all bow down to Victoria Beckham and her ilk, and no one ever idolised, oh, I don't know, the Sex Pistols, The Clash, Elvis, Madonna, to pick a few celebs from past decades. :rotfl:Or perhaps they were better-behaved than celebs today - no drug-taking, promiscuity or alcoholism there then... :rolleyes: Seriously, do you actually believe what you're saying is true?

EdInvestor

Over the years the growth in UK owner occupation is quite interesting;

In 1901 only 10% owned their own home, the other 90% rented.

By 1961 it was 43% owner occupiers
1971 50%
1981 62%
1991 68%
2001 70%

It remains around 70% today, and that is a fairly typical level in most developed countries (eg the US and Australia )where owner occupation is preferred by the majority and letting property is also seen as an investment.

Southern European (Spain, Greece) owner occupation levels are higher, but appear to reflect the fact the countries are still quite rural and have inheritance laws that require property (eg farms) to be split among several children.

meanmachine_2

An excellent post Lavendyr.

No doubt it'll be ignored by Sapphire and they're ilk. But then, if they actually listened to reasoned arguments and looked at the facts and figures, they wouldn't hold the opinions they do, would they?

It's like trying to reason with a brick.

carolt

Sapphire wrote: »

And 20 years ago most people certainly didn't spend in the way they do nowadays, but lived much more frugally. There wasn't all the advertising that there is in your face everywhere nowadays, and most people didn't look on vacuous celebrities as their gods and try to live their lifestyles – many of their heroes actually deserved being regarded as such.

That would be during the caring, sharing 80's would it? What country did you live in??! I can remember the 80's just fine and it was the decade of 'Greed is Good', conspicuous consumption, clubbing.... hardly all about never going out or spending any money...!

I know they say those who say they can remember the 60's weren't actually there, but I didn't realise that applied to the 80's too....

Wow! you must REALLY have been out of it in the 80's to have forgotten it that much..... Club Tropicana, anyone?

lieutenant_dan

this thing about this generation being frivolous is a misnomer anyway, and largely irrelevant to the debate.

Some do take the p**s with easy credit, but as has been pointed out time and again, stuff like entertainment, clothes etc is much, much cheaper now anyway. You can get Ipods for under £50 for God's sake! How is buying a gadget like that going to make a lot of difference anyway, £50 gone from a potential deposit, wow! Big deal, when you need a five figure deposit, doesn't make a blind bit of difference.

Then again, the types of posters who are making these wild irrelevant assumptions probably still have gramaphones.

Pobby

Baby boomer here again.Yes it was a lot easier to buy years ago.We had loads of single friends buying in the 80s in Reading.20 to 25k would get you a 2/3 bedded house there.Oh and we still went to the pub on a regular basis and funded a cheap car.Now these properties are 180k to 200k.So a singleton then on 8k a year(enjoy miras) would have to earn 64k without the help of miras to be in with a chance.

Listen oh younger ones.I am very much on your side.It was only when the IRs got stupid at the end of the 80s did I know anyone who struggled.

Sapphire

Lavendyr wrote: »

Whereas now, you can't even find houses that are priced at 2.5 times salary.


I honestly don't know what kind of people you're talking about, but this is just not true for the vast, vast majority of people and I suspect you'll find that most peoples' experience is completely the opposite of what you describe. Many people today cannot think of buying a house until they are in their thirties - the average FTB age has jumped dramatically. When my sister was my age (12 years ago) she and her OH had bought their first house, a 3-bed semi in a nice area, for around £50k - not even 2x their joint salaries. My OH and I are mid-twenties and late-twenties respectively, earn 50k a year between us, and we would not be able to find a *one-bed flat* in that same area for less than 3x our joint salaries today. As it is, we'll probably not be able to buy for another five years, unless the market corrects to bring it closer to wage inflation.

And the unfortunate young people who *are* desperate to get on the property ladder often feel that way because everyone has rammed into their heads for the last few years that "house prices are always rising" and "you've got to buy soon or you'll never be able to afford it" and "there won't be a crash like last time" and "you've made nothing of yourself until you own property" - oh, and not forgetting "by the time you retire you won't get a state pension, so you better make sure you've got a roof over your head". How many homeowners would want the bubble to burst? Keep pushing up the lending multiples, keep hooking in the FTBs using whatever fancy-sounding schemes you can and keep them thinking they've "got to buy now.


I really detest generalisations like these. How can you possibly make such a generalisation? Yes, some people do spend more, they spend on credit, they borrow...but not everyone.


Yes, we do all bow down to Victoria Beckham and her ilk, and no one ever idolised, oh, I don't know, the Sex Pistols, The Clash, Elvis, Madonna, to pick a few celebs from past decades. :rotfl:Or perhaps they were better-behaved than celebs today - no drug-taking, promiscuity or alcoholism there then... :rolleyes: Seriously, do you actually believe what you're saying is true?

It's very difficult to answer all the scattered responses to my post, but at the time when I bought my first flat (in the very early eighties) I was already in my late twenties. I was working in publishing on a reasonable salary, though certainly not the highest. Most of the people I knew lived in rented accomodation for many years before they even thought of buying a place (the same as happens on the Continent). There certainly wasn't this obsession with property, like there is now.

None of the people I knew ripped out everything the instant they moved into a property like people do these days - thus destroying many period homes, not to mention the effect all the waste has on the environment. They would make do with painting and perhaps changing kitchen applicances, and buying furniture, often secondhand, etc.

I do think you have a very distorted, one-sided view of how people lived twenty years ago. :cool:

I don't know anyone who idolized past entertainers in quite the same way as celebrities like Jordan, the American millionaires' sluttish daughter and others of her ilk who have achieved absolutely nothing apart from their own self-gratification and have no talent are idolized today.

Lavendyr

Sapphire wrote: »

at the time when I bought my first flat (in the very early eighties) I was already in my late twenties. I was working in publishing on a reasonable salary, though certainly not the highest. Most of the people I knew lived in rented accomodation for many years before they even thought of buying a place (the same as happens on the Continent). There certainly wasn't this obsession with property, like there is now.

I don't quite understand your point - I think I offered an explanation as to why *some* young people may have an "obsession" with property, but I simply don't believe that they are the majority, in my experience at least. This board is about property so naturally everyone here is here because they have an interest in property, but in the "real world" (:p) I just don't see that there is an obsession with property at all. Nor do I know anyone in their twenties (which is most of my social group) who owns or aspires to own a property - whether the reason is because they are not settled yet, don't have a partner with whom they want to buy, or because they can't afford it.

Sapphire wrote: »

None of the people I knew ripped out everything the instant they moved into a property like people do these days - thus destroying many period homes, not to mention the effect all the waste has on the environment.

Again, I just have no idea where you are pulling these assertions from; perhaps you have a source you can quote which backs up your comments? Speaking from my own personal experience I don't know anyone at all in the younger age categories who has done or can afford to do this, if they can even buy a house in the first place.

Sapphire wrote: »

I do think you have a very distorted, one-sided view of how people lived twenty years ago. :cool:

I think you have a completely bizarre view of the way people live today. Furthermore, I am not the one making any assumptions on how people lived, if you read my post. I haven't made a single comment on that, other than to point out that people did idolise past entertainers in the same way you describe, which again is based on my personal experience of learning from those who lived during those times.