CEL CCJ - Request for help with applying to have CCJ set aside

Parkingfines

Ignore them just carry on as you have been previously, CEL have form in phoning people before hearings
Then let them bring the case against you again if they so wish (should your set aside be successful)

Coupon-mad

Agreed.

Whenever a PPC or their solicitors phone a few days before any hearing, put the phone down. You know what they want, they want the money, and any tactic is in their interests, not yours.

Proceed with the set aside as planned, not 'with consent' because you won't be paying the PCN anyway and muddying the waters now could jeopardise your application.

I also recall cases where CEL agreed to a set aside 'with consent', took the PCN money from the person, then allegedly, didn't tell the court it had been paid, nor did they sign a consent order, and so it defeated the object and the victim had to scrabble around trying to show the court what had happened (can't even recall if they got the CCJ set aside).

Remember who you are dealing with and tell them to stop harassing you.

Next they will be telling you to stop listening to ill-informed armchair lawyers on forums! We see that a lot. We still win.

Catan

Okay, thanks a lot both, that's given me a good bump in confidence!

Does anyone have any thoughts on my question about the PoFA argument? Worried it might be buried on the first page now. For reference here was my Q:

To be clear, am I right in arguing that:

1. Under PoFA Section 4, CEL are required to issue a 'Notice to Keeper' to the keeper within 14 days of the alleged incident.

2. I, the Defendant, haven't been issued with any Notice to Keeper.

3. I likewise can't be reasonably expected to remember the driver on the day that long ago, and am not required to by law anyway.

Therefore, they have not complied with the PoFA 2012 and therefore cannot serve me with a claim or fee as registered keeper of the vehicle.

My question is around point 2 in particular as well - I haven't received anything, but am I arguing that I haven't received anything because they've been sending it to the wrong address, or that I haven't received anything because they haven't sent it at all? Or both - that I haven't received anything and it doesn't matter why, I just haven't? (I ask because I sent my SAR to them at the end of Dec and the Set Aside hearing is before the 28 days are up, so I have a feeling they won't reply with any info on what they've 'sent' to me at all in time for me to know one way or another).

Catan

Another quick question as well - is a copy of the Registry Trust search showing the CCJ to be under my name at my old address enough to be used as evidence that it was served at my old address, and not the current one?

I ask as I haven't received a response from my SAR to CEL and the 28 days won't have expired by the time of the Set Aside hearing, so I'm not expecting to have had confirmation from them that they sent it to the wrong address in time. Want to have this water-tight that I didn't receive it at any point (and still haven't).

Likewise, I'm assuming I need to have plenty of clear evidence of the fact that I moved to this current address long before the PCN/alleged incident as well, right? (easy enough but just checking!)

KeithP

Catan wrote: »

Another quick question as well - is a copy of the Registry Trust search showing the CCJ to be under my name at my old address enough to be used as evidence that it was served at my old address, and not the current one?

Yes, that is very good evidence.

Catan

Okay great, thanks!

Another question and this one has me concerned. Regarding the non-PoFA argument.

I haven't received any information about the PCN itself from CEL. It's two days (nearly one day) before the hearing. This means I don't have the original PCN to compare it's wording to the PoFA Section 4 to see if it sticks to the strict rules.

The only PoFA-related argument I have available therefore is the argument that it wasn't issued to me within the 14 days of the alleged incident, as is required by PoFA (it was an ANPR one not a windscreen one, I know that from the scant details that I do have). I don't have a date for when a Notice to Keeper was or wasn't sent out.

So, the only way I can argue this is to say that I haven't personally received a Notice to Keeper within those 14 days, because I haven't received one at all, because they've been using the wrong address. Is that enough to stand as an argument in my draft defence at the set aside hearing?

Separate question as well - the WS, evidence cited in it, Draft Order and Draft Defence that I sent with my N244, can I change these at all ahead of the hearing? Or do I have to work from those exact versions? Can I bring new evidence with me etc. (I've found more/better evidence since submitting it a couple weeks ago).

Coupon-mad

The only PoFA-related argument I have available therefore is the argument that it wasn't issued to me within the 14 days of the alleged incident, as is required by PoFA

Nope, you can also say that having researched other similar CEL cases online, you've learnt that in November 2017 that company never used the POFA wording in their Notice to Keepers and rarely posted them in time at all.

So, even if they'd sent one to the right address, that document was still incapable of holding a rk liable (and no lawful assumption can be made that a keeper was the driver, on private land - as per Henry Greenslade's words about Understanding Keeper liability - see the POPLA Annual Report 2015!).

Here's what they looked like in 2017, a typical one sent after MORE THAN THREE weeks:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=116018

Catan

Fantastic, that's a lifesaver of a reply, thanks Coupon-Mad! Should I try to collect as many of these examples as possible or is this one and maybe another (found an early 2017 one on another thread here while trying to figure this out myself) enough?

And with regards to using this as evidence in the court, do I have to amend anything I've already sent, or send them any additional evidence/revisions in advance, etc.? Or can I just turn up with this prepared on the day?

Sorry if that's a stupid question, just anxious about getting undone by a silly logistical error.

Thanks again!

Coupon-mad

Yes, collect a few but not too many. 3 would be persuasive to show a pattern.

And have Henry Greenslade's words, in case your Judge doesn't get why the POFA Schedule 4 came in, and thinks it is possible & lawful to assume a keeper was the driver, in the absence of evidence. It is NOT, on private land, and Henry the barrister and PATAS/POPLA Lead Adjudicator (a real parking law expert) spells it out.

You can just turn up with this on the day, because you are not actually expected to show a full defence at set aside stage, but sometimes people get lucky with a Judge who wants to deal with it all in one go, or at least hear what your planned defence is...

...and if it's strong, maybe a PPC-disliking Judge will be moved to kill 2 birds with one stone and set aside the CCJ and strike out the entire claim, or at least order the Claimant to explain before proceeding further after the set aside, on what basis they believe they can sue a registered keeper and whether they reckon they are relying on the POFA.

Don't forget to ask that your costs be reserved (if not ordered to be immediately paid by CEL!), and that you are concerned that CEL often discontinue after a set aside and thus, you are hoping the Judge will order that CEL pay your costs if they choose not to proceed within a set time.

Otherwise it allows a rogue parking firm to cost consumers a significant amount of upset, time & money then run away with their fingers in their ears and look for an easier target.

Catan

Perfect, I'll make a point of doing all of the above - thank you again Coupon! You've been ace.

Sure I'll be back here again if any final questions come up during last minute prep tomorrow (and I'm sure something will...), but otherwise I'll let you know how it goes afterwards... eek!