If there is a second referendum ...

StevieJ

lisyloo wrote: »

Why shouldn't we have the option to remain now we know what the options are? Some might want to change their mind now it's clearer.
A practical difficulty is that the options above split the leave vote, so ou can't have 3 leave options pluse 1 remain option.

What about Leave WTO Remain Current Terms Leave May deal



Three choices Rank in order 1, 2, or 3



Should provide an interesting result.

OldMusicGuy

Thrugelmir wrote: »

No one appears to agreed this approach with the EU though. FoM is a fundamental right attached to this option.

Indeed, the Labour approach would appear to require that we accept FoM and probably we would be a rule taker and would have to pay in to some degree. This approach has not been put to the EU, but I think they would be open to it because it would be very similar to the EFTA/EEA approach of Norway, Switzerland, Iceland et al. It is a much softer Brexit than has currently been negotiated, which has always been on the basis of leaving the customs union and no FoM.

I think if there was a clear mandate for Labour (or someone) to negotiate a softer Brexit, the EU would be open to that. Part of the challenge is we have not had that discussion with the EU (which is what some of the remainers criticise May for).

Now you will note I keep saying what Labour "appears" to want. I read their strategy last night so that's what I got from that. But they have never clearly articulated it and none of the commentators really push them on it. Labour is happily fudging all of this and saying they can get a wonderful deal that will be the same as what we have now without that claim ever being tested. They just seem to want the Tories to fall apart so they can get power rather than really focusing on Brexit. Maybe I'm being harsh as I'm not a Labour supporter.

I heard a stat this morning on R4 (but don't know if it's true) that Labour party members are roughly 2/3 remain, 1/3 leave. I suspect if Labour get power they will probably let their policy be dictated by members which means they will cast adrift their leave voters.

EDIT: according to YouGov, Labour voters voted 65% remain, 35% leave.

OldMusicGuy

StevieJ wrote: »

What about Leave WTO Remain Current Terms Leave May deal



Three choices Rank in order 1, 2, or 3

I would want to see the Labour approach in there as well. That would allow Labour/SNP to be represented.

StevieJ

BikingBud wrote: »

I thought that's what I voted for in 2016, unfortunately the goalpost movers have been working triple time since then.

So what did Brexit poster boy Danny Hannon vote for?

Mr Hannan insisted shifting Britain to a Norway-style relationship with the EU that frees the UK from political integration but maintains access to the single market was 'feasible'.
And the MEP said this would mean 'free movement of labour' but not the right for EU citizens to gain other benefits.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3659802/Tory-Brexiteer-Dan-Hannan-insists-quitting-EU-does-NOT-mean-dramatic-cuts-number-immigrants-coming-Britain.html

Thrugelmir

OldMusicGuy wrote: »

I think if there was a clear mandate for Labour (or someone) to negotiate a softer Brexit, the EU would be open to that.

Without addressing FoM then there'll be no clear mandate. People are far more interested in aspects of their daily lives which impact them. Than whether it takes a lorry 6 hours longer to arrive in the UK from Spain.

OldMusicGuy

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Without addressing FoM then there'll be no clear mandate. People are far more interested in aspects of their daily lives which impact them. Than whether it takes a lorry 6 hours longer to arrive in the UK from Spain.

I just checked the Labour strategy and it does say they will end FoM. However, in other areas they are much softer. But this approach has never been tested, and Labour is claiming it can get a kind of EFTA/EEA deal without FoM.

I think we need the opportunity for Labour to see if it can genuinely get something like this on the table as an alternative to the harder Brexit options. It may just fall apart very quickly when it is exposed to real scrutiny.

A_Pandiculation

Supposedly our car industry would suffer under a WTO Brexit, there being a 10% tariff/
So it's remarkable that Tesla will over the next few months begin importing 3,000 Model 3's per week into the EU.
Surely not, because remainers tell us that the EU won't want non-EU cars because of those tariffs.


Make what people want and the people will buy as has always been the case and the UK has a long history of making what people want.
https://electrek.co/2018/12/12/tesla-imodel-3-volume-europe-port/

A_Pandiculation

OldMusicGuy wrote: »

I just checked the Labour strategy and it does say they will end FoM. However, in other areas they are much softer. But this approach has never been tested, and Labour is claiming it can get a kind of EFTA/EEA deal without FoM.

I think we need the opportunity for Labour to see if it can genuinely get something like this on the table as an alternative to the harder Brexit options. It may just fall apart very quickly when it is exposed to real scrutiny.

Labour could never remain in the EU and fulfill their promises of renationalisation which fall foul of EU rules.

OldMusicGuy

A_Pandiculation wrote: »

Labour could never remain in the EU and fulfill their promises of renationalisation which fall foul of EU rules.

Not necessarily, Guardian to the rescue (as you would expect): https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/sep/30/experts-reject-labour-leavers-argument-brussels-nationalisation

System

OldMusicGuy wrote: »

surely they need to go back to the people and get another mandate.

A referendum, in this country, is not a mandate. It is an expression of opinion.
The government and parliament are under no obligation to implement it. That ought to be abundantly clear from the "mandate" secured by the first referendum.