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Messy Disabled Parking Notice
LyndiDay
Posts: 5 Forumite
I'm trying to help my sister who is disabled and has been struggling to deal with a parking notice & maybe got herself into a bit of a mess.
She got the parking notice in early October from UKPC. She was parked in Hankridge Park retail park in Taunton. She was in a disabled bay outside The Range for about 20 minutes. She was the passenger in her mobility car and put her blue badge on the dashboard but then knocked it into the footwell while getting out of the car and didn't notice. She has problems with her balance and nerve damage in her hands that mean that she finds it difficult to get out of the car and has to concentrate a lot on not falling over, so the fact that she didn't notice is probably related to her disability.
UKPC have clear photos of the car in the car park, including reg. number, all windows and seats showing the badge was not displayed and showing the car parked near a sign explaining the rules of the car park. These rules include that the parking charge will be issued to the vehicle's driver & that "Disability badge holders only in disabled bays. Valid disabled badge must be clearly displayed at all times"
As well as her physical disabilities my sister has severe anxiety and some memory problems. Once at home she was so distraught that her carer picked up the parking notice and appealed via the online system on my sisters behalf & in her name. She asked for the charge to be dropped, explaining the circumstances above and providing a scanned copy of the blue badge. An automated reply was emailed to my niece's email address (provided in the appeal). This said a formal letter/email would be sent & that if it was not received within 35 days to phone a specific number. No reply has been received. 35 days was over a week ago and neither my sister or niece phoned the number.
No further correspondence was received until a debt collection letter from DRP was sent to my sister's home address on a couple of days ago. A friend phoned them on behalf of my sister and had a discussion about paying, but they didn't come to any agreement. During the call they claimed that the appeal had been denied on the 9th or 10th October and my sister had been informed. However, this isn't the case.
They are now asking for £160 and my sister, who has an anxiety disorder is close to self harming about this. She had to stop working a few years ago and relies solely on disability benefits. She would be willing to pay the original £60 notice to make this go away, but cannot afford the £160 they are now asking for. I also doubt she would be able to cope with continued letters from debt collectors or waiting to see if it went to court. So, I'm hoping that there is some way to resolve this via the original company or an appeal.
Questions:
1. What next steps do you recommend? I was considering contacting UKPC again and confirming that we had had no reply from them and seeing if a full of final settlement of £60 was possible.
2. My sister was not driving and neither she or my niece have informed them who was driving. Its now been 42 days since the original notice on the windscreen. Do they need to send out a notice to keeper, or has the appeal, or my niece's conversation with the debt collectors made that unnecessary.
3. The debt collector letter of 13th Nov states "The person liable for this parking charge is the person who was the driver when it was issued. In certain circumstances, liability can be transferred to the registered keeper. If you're not sure that you're liable, phone us on xxxxx and we'll look into it. If we don't hear from you, we'll take this to mean that you agree you're liable for it. I am assuming this has no force in law and intend to ignore it. Is this correct?
4. Are there any other technical grounds for appeal?
5. Does the Equality act have any bearing here? Is there a case for saying they are being discriminating or have a requirement to make a reasonable adaptation irrespective of the blue badge.
6. it is not clear to me who the landowner is, but The Range only have a lease & are not the landowner. I intend to write to them anyway. Any recommendations on who to contact?
Finally. Thank you in advance for any help.
She got the parking notice in early October from UKPC. She was parked in Hankridge Park retail park in Taunton. She was in a disabled bay outside The Range for about 20 minutes. She was the passenger in her mobility car and put her blue badge on the dashboard but then knocked it into the footwell while getting out of the car and didn't notice. She has problems with her balance and nerve damage in her hands that mean that she finds it difficult to get out of the car and has to concentrate a lot on not falling over, so the fact that she didn't notice is probably related to her disability.
UKPC have clear photos of the car in the car park, including reg. number, all windows and seats showing the badge was not displayed and showing the car parked near a sign explaining the rules of the car park. These rules include that the parking charge will be issued to the vehicle's driver & that "Disability badge holders only in disabled bays. Valid disabled badge must be clearly displayed at all times"
As well as her physical disabilities my sister has severe anxiety and some memory problems. Once at home she was so distraught that her carer picked up the parking notice and appealed via the online system on my sisters behalf & in her name. She asked for the charge to be dropped, explaining the circumstances above and providing a scanned copy of the blue badge. An automated reply was emailed to my niece's email address (provided in the appeal). This said a formal letter/email would be sent & that if it was not received within 35 days to phone a specific number. No reply has been received. 35 days was over a week ago and neither my sister or niece phoned the number.
No further correspondence was received until a debt collection letter from DRP was sent to my sister's home address on a couple of days ago. A friend phoned them on behalf of my sister and had a discussion about paying, but they didn't come to any agreement. During the call they claimed that the appeal had been denied on the 9th or 10th October and my sister had been informed. However, this isn't the case.
They are now asking for £160 and my sister, who has an anxiety disorder is close to self harming about this. She had to stop working a few years ago and relies solely on disability benefits. She would be willing to pay the original £60 notice to make this go away, but cannot afford the £160 they are now asking for. I also doubt she would be able to cope with continued letters from debt collectors or waiting to see if it went to court. So, I'm hoping that there is some way to resolve this via the original company or an appeal.
Questions:
1. What next steps do you recommend? I was considering contacting UKPC again and confirming that we had had no reply from them and seeing if a full of final settlement of £60 was possible.
2. My sister was not driving and neither she or my niece have informed them who was driving. Its now been 42 days since the original notice on the windscreen. Do they need to send out a notice to keeper, or has the appeal, or my niece's conversation with the debt collectors made that unnecessary.
3. The debt collector letter of 13th Nov states "The person liable for this parking charge is the person who was the driver when it was issued. In certain circumstances, liability can be transferred to the registered keeper. If you're not sure that you're liable, phone us on xxxxx and we'll look into it. If we don't hear from you, we'll take this to mean that you agree you're liable for it. I am assuming this has no force in law and intend to ignore it. Is this correct?
4. Are there any other technical grounds for appeal?
5. Does the Equality act have any bearing here? Is there a case for saying they are being discriminating or have a requirement to make a reasonable adaptation irrespective of the blue badge.
6. it is not clear to me who the landowner is, but The Range only have a lease & are not the landowner. I intend to write to them anyway. Any recommendations on who to contact?
Finally. Thank you in advance for any help.
0
Comments
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Questions:
1. What next steps do you recommend? I was considering contacting UKPN again and confirming that we had had no reply from them and seeing if a full of final settlement of £60 was possible.
2. My sister was not driving and neither she or my niece have informed them who was driving. Its now been 42 days since the original notice on the windscreen. Do they need to send out a notice to keeper, or has the appeal, or my niece's conversation with the debt collectors made that unnecessary.
3. The debt collector letter of 13th Nov states "The person liable for this parking charge is the person who was the driver when it was issued. In certain circumstances, liability can be transferred to the registered keeper. If you're not sure that you're liable, phone us on xxxxx and we'll look into it. If we don't hear from you, we'll take this to mean that you agree you're liable for it. I am assuming this has no force in law and intend to ignore it. Is this correct?
4. Are there any other technical grounds for appeal?
5. Does the Equality act have any bearing here? Is there a case for saying they are being discriminating or have a requirement to make a reasonable adaptation irrespective of the blue badge.
6. it is not clear to me who the landowner is, but The Range only have a lease & are not the landowner. I intend to write to them anyway. Any recommendations on who to contact?
1) this will likely be refused, they smell blood and want as much as they can get, the additional £60 was added on by DRP on a no win , no fee basis , so they wont budge either
2) as the driver has not been revealed then to comply with the law (POFA2012) they must send out the NTK between day 29 and day 56 following the event where a windscreen ticket was issued
only then can they hold a keeper liable, so no blabbing and wait it out past 56 days, if the NTK arrives to the keeper then the KEEPER appeals it using the blue text template in the NEWBIES sticky thread. on no account reveal who was driving at this time
3) it is correct, under POFA2012, if the PPC follows that law to the letter (timescales, wording etc)
4) no appeal will work, its a sc@m that the government hasnt changed yet , see this ongoing bill by Sir Greg Knight
https://services.parliament.uk/bills/2017-19/parkingcodeofpractice.html
5) yes it may do as a counterclaim, also as a mechanism against the landowner as well, but currently is of no practical help in a parking charge like this. the BB has no bearing in law on private property, but the EA2010 does have bearing and should be used against the landowner at this time, with the PPC also put on notice, because an occupant of the vehicle was covered by it at the time
6) google it, or alternatively pay the Land Registry a few pounds to get those details and complain strongly to them , citing the EA2010 and holding them jointly and severally liable
in this article https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/news/somerset-news/worst-designed-car-park-taunton-1449172 they couldnt find out who owns that retail park , hence why you pay the Land Registry
I looked on google maps streetview and cannot see any signs at all, do you have pictures of signs you can share using tinypic ?
ps:- from your story it seems to me that the niece has appealed the windscreen ticket in the name of the sister and therefore has given them personal details like her name, her address and her email address, so they will believe that the sister was the driver because in theory the sister has appealed this windscreen notice- this was a foolish thing to do and has led UKPN to believe that the driver was the sister , in which case they do not need to issue an NTK to the keeper of the vehicle
this was the biggest mistake made here so far
ps:- who is UKPN ? full details please0 -
Reassure your sister that we will give all the help we can, and show her this thread so she can see she is getting help.
Please confirm the name of the parking company as there are several with similar initials.
Complain to the manager/CEO of The Range that a vulnerable disabled person who has protected characteristics as defined by the EA 2010 is being mistreated by their agents, making The Range jointly liable for a breach of the EA 2010 should this go to court.
Please complain to your sister's MP about this unregulated scam.I married my cousin. I had to...I don't have a sister.
All my screwdrivers are cordless."You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks0 -
Service providers are required by law to make reasonable adjustments for people with protected characteristics under The Equality Act 2010. IMO cancellation of this ticket is such an adjustment.
If the PPC fail to do so, get on to the Landowner. Warn them that if this get to court you will counter clain against them and the PPC for disability discrimination.
Also complain to your MP. You are in a good position to do damage to the PPC if they want to play hardball,
This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of alleged contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors.
Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, and others have already been named and shamed in the House of Commons as have Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each week, hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned. They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P. for unprofessional conduct
The problem has become so widespread that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. It has even been suggested that some of these companies have links with organised crime.
Watch the video of the Second Reading and committee stage in the House of Commons recently. MPs have a very low opinion of this industry.
http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41
https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2018-07-19/debates/2b90805c-bff8-4707-8bdc-b0bfae5a7ad5/Parking(CodeOfPractice)Bill(FirstSitting)
and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind they will be out of business by in the not too distant future..under nyYou never know how far you can go until you go too far.0 -
The retail park/shopping centre/car park owner will be jointly and severly liable for the actions of its agents.
One big, question that needs answering...
have you informed the parking company that an ocupant of the vehicle has a protected characteristic, and as a result they ( the parking comapny) must now immediatly cease chasing this parking ticket?
If you cna provide some evidence/proof of the disability togehter with a description.
Dear parking company
on date xxxx my vehicle parked at ( description/location of car park) and subsequently received a pakring charge notice ( ref numberxxxxx) as one of the ocupants of the vehicle had a disability that limits their mobilty ( a protected characteristic under the Equality act)the vehicle was parked in a disabaled bay in order to make use of the provision for such persons.
For watever reason your parking company issued a parking charge notice (PCN)
As this person has a protected characteristic ( disbility) under the Equalty act, you are now required to cancel this parking charge with immediate effect.
Evidence of this disability, and the issues/problems it auses are included on page 2.
I look forward to your respnsoe confirming that this paring charge has now been canelled.
lots lovee, hugs and kisses, Lindiday.#
or somehting like that.
The parkin company will dig its heels in and reject, they dont care about people with disabilitys, they dont care about your sister issues, all they care about is scaring her into paing up, ven if it means self harm, going without food etc etc, they ust want her/your money.
Sending a letter/email like that will also set things up niclely for a further complaint to the landowner, and possible action against the landowner for allowing their agents to treat people like that, plus claims against the parking company.From the Plain Language Commission:
"The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"0 -
It would appear that Ropemaker Properties Ltd are the landowner:-
https://realassets.ipe.com/bp-pension-fund-shops-for-real-estate/realassets.ipe.com/bp-pension-fund-shops-for-real-estate/31829.fullarticle
What is strange is that according to the Taunton Deane Planning Dept; Parking Eye obtained advertising consent back in early 2015 for 34 signs for this car park.0 -
You are now all set up to make life difficult for the PPC.You never know how far you can go until you go too far.0
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UKPC are UK Parking Control Ltd. They are a member of the BPA (I've checked the BPA website as well as their own web site)
This is a sign at the car park:
i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n584/lou_lk/parking/Pic%20of%20parking%20sign.jpg
& this is a picture provided online by the PPC of the car (redacted by me). It seems to show the car under a sign. I hate to say it, but it looks like the signage isn't grounds for complaint.
i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n584/lou_lk/parking/LD%20Sign.jpg
Half_Way asks:
One big, question that needs answering...
have you informed the parking company that an ocupant of the vehicle has a protected characteristic, and as a result they ( the parking comapny) must now immediatly cease chasing this parking ticket?
If you cna provide some evidence/proof of the disability togehter with a description.
The answer is half way! The appeal by my niece stated my sister was disabled and provided it by providing a copy of her blue badge but didn’t mention the Equality act & its requirements at all.
Redx states:
2) as the driver has not been revealed then to comply with the law (POFA2012) they must send out the NTK between day 29 and day 56 following the event where a windscreen ticket was issued
only then can they hold a keeper liable, so no blabbing and wait it out past 56 days, if the NTK arrives to the keeper then the KEEPER appeals it using the blue text template in the NEWBIES sticky thread. on no account reveal who was driving at this time
Which seems clear, But then he confuses the issue slightly by saying:
from your story it seems to me that the niece has appealed the windscreen ticket in the name of the sister and therefore has given them personal details like her name, her address and her email address, so they will believe that the sister was the driver because in theory the sister has appealed this windscreen notice- this was a foolish thing to do and has led UKPN to believe that the driver was the sister , in which case they do not need to issue an NTK to the keeper of the vehicle
as it suggests that an NTK is not needed by the parking company.
I’m therefore not quite sure what my next action should be wrt to the parking company. I feel I should write to them in no uncertain terms and require them to comply with the equality act and to clarify that we’re writing as the keeper of the vehicle and not the driver. But, I’m not sure if I should wait until 56 days are up or write straight away. And, I’m not sure if I should mention the appeal and the fact that they said they would reply and haven’t, or if that is a red herring.
Thanks for all the help and suggestings re the MP, The Range and the Landlord. Letters will be written.0 -
UKPC are fraudsters, do not expect them to behave as would John Lewis.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11858473/Parking-firm-UKPC-admits-faking-tickets-to-fine-drivers.htmlYou never know how far you can go until you go too far.0 -
UKPN are UK Parking Control Ltd. They are a member of the BPA (I've checked the BPA website as well as their own web site)
This is a sign at the car park:
i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n584/lou_lk/parking/Pic%20of%20parking%20sign.jpg
& this is a picture provided online by the PPC of the car (redacted). It seems to show the car under a sign. I hate to say it, but it looks like the signage isn't grounds for complaint.
i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n584/lou_lk/parking/LD%20Sign.jpg
Half_Way asks:
One big, question that needs answering...
have you informed the parking company that an ocupant of the vehicle has a protected characteristic, and as a result they ( the parking comapny) must now immediatly cease chasing this parking ticket?
If you cna provide some evidence/proof of the disability togehter with a description.
The answer is half way! The appeal by my niece stated my sister was disabled and provided it by providing a copy of her blue badge but didn’t mention the Equality act & its requirements at all.
Redx states:
2) as the driver has not been revealed then to comply with the law (POFA2012) they must send out the NTK between day 29 and day 56 following the event where a windscreen ticket was issued
only then can they hold a keeper liable, so no blabbing and wait it out past 56 days, if the NTK arrives to the keeper then the KEEPER appeals it using the blue text template in the NEWBIES sticky thread. on no account reveal who was driving at this time
Which seems clear, But then he confuses the issue slightly by saying:
from your story it seems to me that the niece has appealed the windscreen ticket in the name of the sister and therefore has given them personal details like her name, her address and her email address, so they will believe that the sister was the driver because in theory the sister has appealed this windscreen notice- this was a foolish thing to do and has led UKPN to believe that the driver was the sister , in which case they do not need to issue an NTK to the keeper of the vehicle
as it suggests that an NTK is not needed by the parking company.
I’m therefore not quite sure what my next action should be wrt to the parking company. I feel I should write to them in no uncertain terms and require them to comply with the equality act and to clarify that we’re writing as the keeper of the vehicle and not the driver. But, I’m not sure if I should wait until 56 days are up or write straight away. And, I’m not sure if I should mention the appeal and the fact that they said they would reply and haven’t, or if that is a red herring.
Thanks for all the help and suggestings re the MP, The Range and the Landlord. Letters will be written.
Please edit all your posts to change UKPN to UKPC. I'm not sure how you got from the name of the PPC to your acronym of UKPN, but it has caused confusion.
https://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n584/lou_lk/parking/Pic%20of%20parking%20sign.jpg
http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n584/lou_lk/parking/LD%20Sign.jpg
The signs are inadequate and do not conform to the BPA Code of Practice requirements. The charges of £100 and £60 are in small font, and thus disimilar to the Beavis case.
They are the usual rubbish signs that UKPC always use, and they never comply = failure at PoPLA.
Please confirm whether or not the appeal was in your sister's name. The way you have written about the appeal is confusing as it doesn't explain clearly whether it was written by someone else like this: -
I appeal, blah, blah, blah,
Yours Fruitcake
or
I appeal on behalf of My Cousin, blah, blah, blah,
Yours, Fruitcake's CousinI married my cousin. I had to...I don't have a sister.All my screwdrivers are cordless."You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks0 -
so UKPC, not UKPN then , so as mentioned above, edit your posts to give the correct details
I dont have a photobucket account so cannot see your pics, try using tinypic instead
if there was a windscreen ticket, wait until day 57 so that they cannot issue one within POFA2012 guidelines
however, if a postal NTK has been received from UKPC by the keeper of the vehicle, then that is the NTK
meanwhile, complain in writing to the landowner or M.A. and mention the Equality Act 2010 with a redacted copy/scan/pic of the BB as well0
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