Outfox The Market Direct Debit changes

editor1

Anthorn,

I'm checking my own records with regards OFTM and can clarify that when signing with OFTM it was just a regular DD agreement - indeed, no T&Cs were ever included in OFTMs Welcome pack - they keep insisting that they always give 10 days notification to any changes they make to a DD their end, however, if a DD with Fischer Energy is cancelled and they then utilise a different DD service number owned by another of their numerous business entities, all registered separately at Companies House, this constitutes a new arrangement that the customer has not sanctioned?

I must say the more i learn about OFTM the more concerned i become, which means my own due diligence undertaken in March was not as stringent as i originally thought - it does seem they are Leicester-based Cowboy operators.

Thaiholls

Have just looked at the Emails sent to me relating to DD all give OFTM as the name and the same ref number, so no change of company YET...

markipad

editor1 wrote: »

Hi All,

I hope someone more versed on these issues presently can assist?

In a nutshell, if you sign up to a Direct Debit payment scheme you are voluntarily giving one business, and one business only, the right to access funds from your Bank Account for services. All fair and square as you might say.

It transpires that OFTM is actually using several of its registered business entities to remove funds from customers accounts, namely, and having cancelled a DD with one business, OFTM does not utilise that Business entity to re=set up a DD its side, rather, it uses a completely different business entity that has not been authorised to remove funds from customers accounts.

This raises many concerns, not least unauthorised withdrawal of funds - THEFT

The sharing of customer data with another entity, not expressly consented too by the customer, which is a breach of data regulations and a matter for the ICO to investigate.

Anyone care to shed some light on this given banks are claiming customers have voluntarily divulged banking details to a business via a DD Agreement, which is 100% correct if its the same entity we are dealing with. When its a completely different entity that has not been sanctioned by the customer then any such cash withdrawals are clearly unsanctioned in that no DD agreement/authorisation was ever given?

If this is indeed happening, and there are many reports on the FB “outfox the market discussion” group to suggest that it is, then I strongly suspect it is being done to circumvent the automated processes of the banks. In this digital world, I strongly suspect that the banks only have a method to “stop” a direct debit which matches exactly the one that the customer has cancelled. I would imagine they just do not have the manpower these days to manualy check direct debits.

A bit of background information: I worked in the retail banking sector in the early 1990s. In those days, every new direct debit mandate had to be checked by hand, ensuring that the customer’s signature was genuine etc. An entry was then made on a reference card. Then, when the first direct debit under that mandate was attempted, (it was flagged up automatically on a huge daily computer printout of all direct debits for that banking branch), the amount, payee and reference number were carefully manually checked against the direct debit reference card!

It clearly isn’t done that way these days, and therein lies the problem, methinks !;)

N6Highgate

It seems that there is a mass exodus from this company.

Will they even remain?

I am in the process of leaving myself.


regards,

[Deleted User]

One doesn't know how much they have been hit over recent days. They did have around 100,000 customers, and obviously, being amongst the cheapest on the market, have attracted more over the recent period. They are only a small company and don't have lots of capital to spare, and they are having to pay more for their energy, which is purchased on future contracts. From what I have been able to gather due to others on this forum, they have to find around £750,000 this financial year and over £2 million in advance contracts for next year. They have around 60 employees, very few, of those, I would think are "high flyers", ie. with lots of expertise in various parts of the business, from accountancy to forecasting growth and cash flow. This seems pretty obvious to me, due to the way they appeared to panic when they suddenly realised that they were going to be very short of capital, and suddenly, without much forethought as to the consequences of their actions, suddenly increased the monthly d.d.s for the winter, with a corresponding decrease during the summer months. The nature of the energy supply business is seasonal in that there tends to be more gas and electricity used during the winter than during the summer, due to the cold weather, on the whole. Also, customers have been encouraged to set up direct debits by the industry, giving us financial incentives to do so, such as free credit during the winter months, as most of us who are on fixed incomes, can see the benefits of regular bills, evenly spread throughout the year. Unlike the larger suppliers, they, as have other small companies, have been asking for a months money up front, as a way of defraying their costs.
They seem to have a lot more customers come on board, this coming winter season, so this has meant that their cash flow, and their working capital has diminished and will diminish quite rapidly, in my opinion. As they have said, they are not a credit agency, they are a supplier of gas and electricity. When they realised this, instead of sitting down and working out the consequences of such massive changes in the direct debit system and undermining the present policy which is very convenienit to customers, they panicked, didn't take into account the customers personal circumstances, or how many were on fixed, yearly or two yearly contracts, and how many were on variable contracts with no penalties for leaving.


Now, that they have had more time to think it out and have seen how their rather rash behaviour has brought out all the problems in their market place, particularly charging customers more who already have large credits, they have tried to negotiate with their customers, and bring down the monthly direct debits to a more reasonable level. However, whether this approach is going to work, I don't know. And, anyway, with such few staff and most of them unqualified or inexperienced in these matters, a lot of customers have been left hanging, unable to get through to them far less get proper replies from them...again according to what I have read on this forum.



I, myself, am on a variable contract and only signed up a month or so ago. When I was presented with 10 days notice of a huge increase in the d.d. I began to think that they were running out of money, and decided that I wasn't going to be their credit agency, and changed over to another company via Martin Lewis's energy club, the switch over is going through now. As I am partially deaf, I didn't bother to take advantage of their online chat. I joined them because they were an online company and I wanted to deal with them direct by email...The only communication I have had from them is the notice by email increasing my direct debit, and a notice by email, saying that I had stopped my direct debit. I believe they are still the cheapest, but it is too late now, as I have switched over to another company and which, hopefully will occur in the next few days.

Billy_the_fish

So ive just checked my Hero Hub and a statement has appeared.
(4 Days late but still dated 6th Dec)
My actual DD is £60.11 per month
I think the last figure they said was going to take was £85, which is when i cancelled my DD (To clarify, im on a fixed tariff)
Ive sent a complaint on 16th Nov along with confirming to them that i had cancelled my DD (Im expected to inform them, so keeping to my side of things, and also allows them to acknowledge that). So far no attempt at re-instating DD from their side.
In the complaint, i also requested that no fee's nor penalties be added to account whilst in dispute, i think that is allowed until they can at least respond to complaint. So if they do try and charge me, i have some legs as per my request.
In my complaint i did offer payment of the £60.11 in any format but DD currently if they provide me details.

Checking my credit which was at £172.66 yesterday.
Today they have taken payment of £77.60 from my credit.
That balances out at roughly what my usage is for this month. Again they have over cooked it a little but not by much.

If they'd of left me with the £60.11 DD then taken any extra (£17 in this case) from my credit all would of balanced out and not affected me at this time of the year.
Instead they have forgone this months payment to deduct it from my credit.

Still no response from my complaint though. I think they have until Jan 11th to respond with the 8week time frame before taking it further. Still 4 weeks for them to formally respond with a resolve, but crap time of year for them to be dealing with this headache, whilst at least I(we) have to option to put them on ignore til next year and enjoy christmas :beer:

Something ill doubt they will be doing :rotfl:

editor1

@paters,

I'm aware OFTM is just branding and for invoicing services the actual name of the business entity we are dealing with usually shows up on bank statements, which should be Foxglove, however, it transpire they can use three different Business names to deduct funds from your account, and even this is not an issue with this poster, the issue is that many others who have Cancelled DDs are having them re-initiated via a plethora of business entities all registered to where Foxglove are operating from - does it not strike you as rather strange they can use up to 30 different named entities to set-up a DD payment scheme all allegedly associated with OFTM?

Anyhow, the more horror stories i'm coming across the greater my worry becomes, that said, at a personal account level we are not doing too bad, but I do now wish to be prepared for any eventuality given some major screw ups OFTM has made - the question is now can they survive until the end of the financial year on 30 March 2019, or will they hit the wall?

ssray

I spoke again to outfox about my dd going from £92 to £212 this month, nice lady explained everything that I already knew from on here and at the 3rd ask told me I was £13 credit, not alot but no reason to.take £212, she had no way of adjusting the dd and its been 10days since I was assured of a reply or contact.
So I cdncelled the dd and am switching to peoples energy, estimate is about £110pcm, will have to see how they fare

harrowian

I would urge people to read the reviews on outfox the market on trustpilot and the facebook group Outfox The Market Discussion
Urgently check your bank account for direct debits and delete where necessary.
This firm is rampaging out of control.

bye_bye_band_G

Lots of people have said they have cancelled Direct Debits, myself included. It's important to realise that they are automatically reinstating ALL cancelled DDs, as many times as you cancel it they will re-instate it. Even if you have written and expressly forbidden them to. (I doubt they are even reading these). So don't assume because you've cancelled, that will be the end of it, it really won't. It seems the only way to do this effectively is to cancel two working days before the payment is due to be taken (if that's the minimum notice you need to give your bank). This doesn't really give them time to come back at you.

I really feel for people who don't have online banking, as there's no effective way to keep checking if you don't, and rely on phone or branch banking.

And, if you do find it's taken anyway, use the bank Direct Debit guarantee to get the money back (immediately) by letting your bank know this was reinstated and the money taken out without your permission.