Paypal resolution bias PLEASE HELP..!

denrob

I read with great interest the comments on a closed thread regarding paypal. Good advice. However I do not have a hypothetical situation going. Mine is real. I was hoping for your help. Anything anyone can offer will be received with grateful thanks...
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1. I sold, on ebay, a sealed rare triple vinyl LP set by Abba. Still sealed and brand spanking new. Nice and clean, no creases and no damage. Money was received and item sent and received. As it was a high end item (£200) I photographed it back and front as well as the package itself prior to mailing. Mailed with full insurances and tracking.

2. Item was received and I left positive feedback for the buyer thinking all was well...

3. The following day the buyer opened a case with EBAY claiming misrepresentation, that the item was not as described. (Apparently I cannot post links here so if you search ebay for the following under "closed auctions" you will see the item as it was advertised - ABBA LIVE WEMBLEY 3 LP SET "STILL SEALED FROM NEW" ...

4. I answered in all candour and the buyer closed the claim stating: "I should have asked more questions. My fault." Case closed. (Absolutely no mention of any damage at this stage and also there was never any "questions" asked. The only communication between the buyer and myself was from me to send an image of the package he would receive the following day)...

5. The same day the ebay claim was closed by the buyer, another claim was opened with paypal.

6. The buyer is now stating - with paypal - misrepresentation AND that the item was damaged. (Bear in mind there was no mention of any damage with the ebay claim).

7. The buyer has sent pictures which show a damaged spine, a serious fold on the front cover and a serious fold on the back cover (The item is a triple set so it folds out...)

8. ALSO... the buyer states in an email to eBay that he saw this "damage" through the sealed shrink wrap and then went on and opened the item anyway. (It is now worth a fraction of what it sold for and I know it was perfect).

9. At this stage, seeing this so called damage through the shrink wrap, any logical thinking human would immediately report this as arriving damaged and NOT open the item but rather photograph the package AND the item still sealed in its shrink wrap and send this information to the seller (me) - immediately. The seller (me) would have immediately asked for the item to be photographed in the condition it was received, to include the packaging, for the item to be returned and I could then have made a valid claim with the Post Office.
Does this make sense so far?

10. Despite sending this information and photographs to Paypal as well as providing proof of the cancelled claim with eBay and the buyers response of “I should have asked more questions, my fault” – (eBay case then closed by buyer) – Paypal are still siding with the buyer on this despite every contradiction being proven.

11. Paypal have still sided with the buyer despite my notifying them of everything... including MY pictures,. They have instructed the buyer to return the item to me and it is apparently in the post now.

12. Paypal have placed the purchase price on hold in my account with them, to be refunded to the buyer upon receipt of the returned item. They also state I must refund this buyer all shipping costs.

13. Strange but I called Paypal and they instructed me that there was an appeal button on the claim but when I look, there isn’t. All there is - is a button that says I have received the returned item and that they will issue the refund.

I feel certain I am being conned and that this buyer. I KNOW there was NO damage to the item. I mean, as I explained to paypal, if this "damage" could be seen through the sealed shrink wrap, then why did the buyer go ahead and open the item? Why not notify me that the item arrived damaged, photographed the package and then the item so I could immediately refund and make a claim with the Post Office. It was sent tracked and fully insured for this very reason....

Why open a claim with ebay using one excuse... then close it claiming it was his fault - though NOT mentioning any damage - while at the same time opening another claim with paypal and adding this so called damage?
Now this item is supposedly in the mail... what do I do? Do I accept it or simply return to sender?

I have already cancelled my credit cards on file with ebay and paypal so they will NOT get any further cash from my account (they say I have to pay the buyer extra for mailing the item back) though I am loathed to accept this return. I KNOW it wasn't damaged and I KNOW I was thorough in the auction description. I always am.

ANY advice to this problem greatly appreciated

Rob in the UK xxx

Ps, I wish I knew how to upload my pictures so you could all see the contradictions...

denrob

PLEASE DO A google SEARCH FOR THE FOLLOWING:
ebay.co.uk/itm/202491034341

i HAVE UPLOADED IMAGES THERE...

caps lock so sorry

denrob

Another where pictures are housed is at google search

ebay.co.uk/itm/253963568593

this link will show the package as it was sent. fully wrapped and included double "stiffners" to help protect it in transit...

theonlywayisup

Phew, long post and I admit I didn't read most of it.

I think the buyer opened a claim on eBay, closed it and is trying Paypal?

Wait for Paypal to grant the return and the buyer will have to send the item back to you via a tracked method.

When it comes back take it from there.

denrob

Sorry it is a long post. I'm not used to this kind of action... So you would agree in that I should accept the item return? Why? What kind of action can I take then? As far as I can see. None.

I have been advised to cancel all my credit and debit cards with paypal and ebay...(done). Let paypal issue the refund thus putting my account in the red then refuse to add funds. Hopefully paypal will bear the cost of a small claims in the UK courts against me. I can then submit my evidence to a court and let them decide.

Hmm, yes I suppose it would be beneficial in accepting the return, then at least I have some kind of evidence.

Right now I am way past caring on Paypal and this {Edited by Forum Team} buyer and I apologise for swearing but he seems to be a professional at this and has made many claims for misrepresentation... and won time and time again...

It's just not right. this {Edited by Forum Team} should not be allowed to be getting away with this time and time again...

denrob

I swear... a lot in life. so now paypal have banned me from their community. Oh I laughed... I didn't even write any swear words just a few !!!'s and ***'s - As far as I am concerned paypal can do what the hell they like from now on. They can send a debt collector, the paint on the door will last longer than the skin on their fingers. Eventually this will end up in court at their expense. I can wait... and wait... and wait and not loose any sleep over this. Whilst this is not a threat... have you ever wanted to pan someones head in? Boy I am sorely tempted right now LOL (NOT a threat, just how I feel at this precise moment in time.)

denrob

Paypal banned me from their community forum because... my user name was IDETESTPP

Hey ho.

I'm going on this advice... posted on another thread on this forum which is now closed...

Paypal do not have any legal authority to adjudicate and subsequently award any party financially, therefore any decision they make is not a legally binding one.

What that means is if they freeze some of your money then subsequently give it away to a third party be it a buyer who claimed the money back or whatever and you feel you have strong argument that the decision was wrong, you can challenge the decision in the county court by claiming back the money they gave away.

An example being, you sign up to paypal you agree to their dispute resolution procedures, you sell something buyer pay's takes delivery and opens dispute, paypal refund buyer without you getting back your goods you can go after paypal for your money as they took it from you and gave it away, therefore they owe you. the fact you agreed to the process in the terms and conditions has little legal implications because any contract term which leaves you exposed to unusual or unreasonable risk of loss is unlikely to be upheld by a court.

One massive thing that paypal users have over paypal themselves when going to court is that the money at all times legally belongs to you, even when it is on hold under paypal's 21 day rule it is still legally yours, there is no time from when the buyer pays you that the money does not belong to you legally, it never belongs to paypal legally and so ultimately you have the authority to decide what happens to your money and if paypal ignore or disobey you in giving away your money they will need a damn good reason for doing so to successfully go in front of a court to defend their actions.

THANK YOU TO THIS FORUM'S MEMBER "SOOLIN"
WISE ADVICE I WILL USE. XXXXX

pinkshoes

Getting worked up over this is not going to help you.

Wait until it is returned then take it from there.

Save all the details from the eBay dispute and PayPal dispute as evidence.

I would respond to the buyer stating that once you have received the item back in it's same pristine condition you will refund, and if the item has been opened and damaged then you will take them to court for any loss of value.

Much easier to take the buyer to court than PayPal.

Save all your eBay listing too.

jeffuk

denrob wrote: »

One massive thing that paypal users have over paypal themselves when going to court is that the money at all times legally belongs to you,

I believe the way internet trading and Paypal works is the money belongs to the buyer in the long run, at least until they are happy with the transaction.

[Deleted User]

A possible scanario is that the buyer coule already have this item and knowing it's rare, have replaced their old sleeve and vinyls or maybe just the outer sleeve with your new cover hence why they opened the shrink wrap and are going to return their copy. I started out selling vinyls on ebay back in 2002 and fortunately never had any issues with dodgy buyers but have heard of this to be done. Was the LP sent in a standard outer vinyl mailer or did you include extra packaging? When I sold very expensive vinyls I would send out with additional foam boards or bubble wraped and would take pictures as evidence. Paypal don't normally take photos/videos as evidence but if you had to settle this away from them as a case of fraud then any photos of packaging and original appearance of LP would be deemed some sort of evidence. Before cancelling cards etc you should have rung the buyer up, got an idea of what their game was in claiming the LP was in bad condition when received yet was brand spanking new when they received it. Warned them that they had no right to open the protection if they thought the item was in bad condition and that you feel there is fraud being commited in that they are possibly trying to replace their LP with yours and return a defected item back to you. A warning of taking this down the legal route if they opted to try a paypal claim might of shaken them up. It's a hard call on this as it really does depend on how you sent it as it could quite easily have arrived damaged but on the other hand I would await for the LP to be returned and see what you receive back. A call to the buyer wouldn't hurt though.

denrob

Thats exactly what I think is happening, the buyer is replacing his old item with my pristine one. I sent it overnight delivery, packaged well with extra stiffner boards inside. fragile tape all over it. I have no idea if the buyer is returning it in it's packaging that I sent with it or if he is sending new. He is NOT claiming damage - so far - by the post office so...

I am fuming with PP I truly am and I've let rip at them too. In any event PP will not be able to access any funds from my bank or cards so it will be them that send the collection agencies and I'll wait for them to take ME to court. It;s really up to them if they want to refund a lying scumbag.

I have pictures... not a problem. now I need to copy the ad...(never thought of that)