Purchasing a house with lost deeds and unregistered

Land_Registry

stickysituation wrote: »

Ok so today I had a reply he forwarded me directly from his solicitors but first the background is he moved to the property him his brother and parents in 1964 so over 50 years his parents had a private loan to pay for the house this was paid fortnightly to a solicitor he has the rent books to show this the load was paid off in 1977 he has the deeds from 1922 when the house was first built but nothing from 1964 when they moved in which I myself find a little odd his parents passed and the house was acquired by the 2 boys I’m still unsure of whether probate/letters of admin was acquired however personally I hate the fact the bloody solicitor will drag that one out both cost and time wise (yes I know it’s not my problem) but having acquired my own mother and both grandmas probate grant on my own and might I add within 10 days not the 2 months quoted (rant over :rotfl:) it just gets my pip
Anyway here was the reply
The property is not registered at HM Land Registry and as the deeds have been lost the title to the property has to be ‘reconstructed’ to prove ownership from the initial purchase of the property in 1964 to date. This is a time consuming job for lawyers because it entails undertaking searches, collating documentation from as many sources as possible and preparing statements from any relevant parties. Once such information has been collated an application will be made to the Land Registry for the title to the property to be registered in your name. This will, however, only happen if the Land Registry is satisfied with the evidence provided. If so, the property will be registered, but will be given the lowest grade of title which is called ‘Possessory Title’. This title can be upgraded to ‘Absolute Title’ after a 12 year period has elapsed once the property is registered and no one has come forward to claim any interest in the property. Hence if the property gets registered in 2019 then a period of 12 months must expire before an application can be made to the Land Registry for the title to be upgraded to Absolute Title. The problem with a Possessory Title is that mortgage lenders are often not prepared to lend on a property with this grade of title due to the uncertainly that someone could always appear with proof that the property was actually transferred from the original owner to them. Whilst in these circumstances it would seem unlikely that this will happen given that your parents owned and lived in the property from when they purchased it until their deaths and then you have lived there since, the law is clear in that the period of 12 months has to expire.

As discussed, your buyers need to be aware of this, but I hope that the estate agents have now advised them of such and they have been able to advise their mortgage company of this.

Again as discussed the whole process could take up to six months. We have no control over how long the Land Registry could take to deal with our application. Your buyers therefore need to be made fully aware of this timeline

I’ve spoken to our mortgage company who will be happy to progress providing they provide indemnity insurance with the possessory title so that’s good
Just need to speak with our solicitor in morning
Stil I’m worried what’s best to do

We've jumped in here to post as you posed Qs on the Land Registry thread as well but not posted there again, which is fine as there are wider issues to cover

As Cakeguts posts it's 12 years and not 12 months but the solicitor has set the position out very clearly.

Having deeds from 1922 is a positive and may mitigate the risks for you/lender

You refer to a private loan, which they have evidence to show was paid off. But you then mention a rent book? I.m guessing that was used to record the loan payments but important to confirm.

The key issue is no conveyance to confirm the 1964 purchase. Alongside that you have the Q of whether both parents bought or just one. Social/economic factors in the 60s/70s were such that often, but not always, it was the Male who was the sole buyer/legal owner.

The As to those Qs will take time to establish as the solicitor explains. And the joint/sole ownership A then dictates which probate is required.

Properties being handed down in the family is not uncommon so that aspect woukd not normally be an issue or a concern. But you still need a legal deed to convey/transfer the legal ownership so whilst you can inherit you need probate to then sell/mortgage/lease the property as and when you need to, as here.

If the parents were joint owners, Dad died first and then Mother, they will need probate for her. The legal ownership passes to the surviving joint owner on death of the other.

The timescales quoted are quite reasonable and important to recognise that they say 'up to 6 months' so are managing expectations as a result.

Finally, in reading and responding to a wide variety of enquiries around unregistered properties, it seems the modern approach in such cases is to ask the seller to register first before completing any purchase. There will be lots of reasons for that choice, one if which is the management if risk by both buyer/lender. It reads as if the lender is now on board re that risk, which many would see as a plus as well as crucial.

BossyFlossy

Hi,
I haven’t had time to read all the comments but we are purchasing a house which was unregistered with missing documents in the deeds and it has just been registered in one calendar month.
Registration complete!
Keep the faith! I’d move in if I really wanted the house. Good luck and stay strong. There is a solution to every problem.

Cakeguts

BossyFlossy wrote: »

Hi,
I haven’t had time to read all the comments but we are purchasing a house which was unregistered with missing documents in the deeds and it has just been registered in one calendar month.
Registration complete!
Keep the faith! I’d move in if I really wanted the house. Good luck and stay strong. There is a solution to every problem.

Yes but what title was it registered with?

stickysituation

I’ll be happy to get possessory title as I can see that’s it’s possible to still mortgage with this title
Replying to land Registry the rent book was taken to a solicitors every fortnight to be paid I just need to find out who’s name it was all in whether probate was obtained for either parent at either death and also shall live in hope of these elusive deeds appearing at some point
He moves out of the house next month and has over 50 years of house contents to empty so you never know
I shall find out more this weekend as I’ve arranged a meeting with the vendor to discuss it all I can ask all the questions relevant
Many many thanks for all your help so far 🤗

stickysituation

BossyFlossy wrote: »

Hi,
I haven’t had time to read all the comments but we are purchasing a house which was unregistered with missing documents in the deeds and it has just been registered in one calendar month.
Registration complete!
Keep the faith! I’d move in if I really wanted the house. Good luck and stay strong. There is a solution to every problem.

Was it just a few bits or all of them I have so far only the original Conveyance from 1922 then nothing from when my vendor moved in in 1964? I’m trying to stay positive about it all

BossyFlossy

The plan and a gift of Deed were missing.
The LR requested and statement of truth and made a visit to take measurements.
The vendor needs to collate every bit of evidence to ownership that the can find in order to prove the ownership.
You need to check that your lender will be satisfied with not having a title absolute.

BossyFlossy

Title is Absolute

stickysituation

Land_Registry wrote: »

We've jumped in here to post as you posed Qs on the Land Registry thread as well but not posted there again, which is fine as there are wider issues to cover

As Cakeguts posts it's 12 years and not 12 months but the solicitor has set the position out very clearly.

Having deeds from 1922 is a positive and may mitigate the risks for you/lender

You refer to a private loan, which they have evidence to show was paid off. But you then mention a rent book? I.m guessing that was used to record the loan payments but important to confirm.

The key issue is no conveyance to confirm the 1964 purchase. Alongside that you have the Q of whether both parents bought or just one. Social/economic factors in the 60s/70s were such that often, but not always, it was the Male who was the sole buyer/legal owner.

The As to those Qs will take time to establish as the solicitor explains. And the joint/sole ownership A then dictates which probate is required.

Properties being handed down in the family is not uncommon so that aspect woukd not normally be an issue or a concern. But you still need a legal deed to convey/transfer the legal ownership so whilst you can inherit you need probate to then sell/mortgage/lease the property as and when you need to, as here.

If the parents were joint owners, Dad died first and then Mother, they will need probate for her. The legal ownership passes to the surviving joint owner on death of the other.

The timescales quoted are quite reasonable and important to recognise that they say 'up to 6 months' so are managing expectations as a result.

Finally, in reading and responding to a wide variety of enquiries around unregistered properties, it seems the modern approach in such cases is to ask the seller to register first before completing any purchase. There will be lots of reasons for that choice, one if which is the management if risk by both buyer/lender. It reads as if the lender is now on board re that risk, which many would see as a plus as well as crucial.

Ok so many thanks for this help spoke to the vendor who explained that these deeds or rather the important parts were destroyed in a flood in 2010 the 1922 one and the loan payment book were all that was left/salvaged ! I think there were rather a lot of buckets of sludge removed from the house.
His solicitor has started the ball with a list of things he needs to get such as old rates and some kind of letter from the neighbors who have also been there for over 40yr
He’s already been frantically getting all of this info together
A grant of probate for his mother is also being obtained so I am at least a little more hopeful this won’t take the 6 months it perhaps could

stickysituation

As for the renting side of things hmmm we aren’t sure as I read I’m not so sure he is actually able to do this if he actually isn’t the legal owner ?? We backed off slightly when he said “I was going to rent it to you for nothing” then changed to how about half what you pay now we thought hmm not what you were saying before was it and I reminded him he may have to pay tax on these “earnings” plus get all sorts of landlords stuff ? He then said oh well I mean it could be less money whatever you are comfortable with (panicking a bit at that point) Ohh I just don’t know at the mknent I wondered if we should have just said maybe we could have the key to go in every few days to keep check and clean the place up it’s gonna take a lot ! I really want this house but it’s becoming increasingly harder to know the best next move

Cakeguts

stickysituation wrote: »

As for the renting side of things hmmm we aren’t sure as I read I’m not so sure he is actually able to do this if he actually isn’t the legal owner ?? We backed off slightly when he said “I was going to rent it to you for nothing” then changed to how about half what you pay now we thought hmm not what you were saying before was it and I reminded him he may have to pay tax on these “earnings” plus get all sorts of landlords stuff ? He then said oh well I mean it could be less money whatever you are comfortable with (panicking a bit at that point) Ohh I just don’t know at the mknent I wondered if we should have just said maybe we could have the key to go in every few days to keep check and clean the place up it’s gonna take a lot ! I really want this house but it’s becoming increasingly harder to know the best next move

Check the buildings and contents insurance possibilities for a house that flooded not long ago.