Purchasing a house with lost deeds and unregistered

Thrugelmir

stickysituation wrote: »

We haven’t called them yet this email came from the vendor as we have been in contact constantly and happened to message him asking if he’d any news from his side re contracts etc that’s when he said .

Your solicitor is the person to be talking too. As there the ones that know the full position.

xylophone

The problem is that though he says the house was left to him by his mother there is at the present time no proof that this is the case.

If there was a will it may be possible to get a copy.

https://www.gov.uk/search-will-probate

Cakeguts

https://www.gov.uk/protect-land-property-from-fraud This is advice for people who own houses on how to avoid fraud. The last two fit the description of the property you are trying to buy and soon the last 3 will.



You only have the word of the vendor that this property is his.



He says that is solicitor told him to take out indemnity insurance in case someone turned up to claim the property but that won't help you if you are living there doing it up before you buy it.


If the house appears to be good value for what it is then there is a problem.



If it was advertised as needing a quick sale then there is also a problem.


https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4753148/mortgage-on-unregistered-property


When did the vendor find out that you needed a mortgage to buy the property? Was it recently or some time ago?

stickysituation

Cakeguts wrote: »

https://www.gov.uk/protect-land-property-from-fraud This is advice for people who own houses on how to avoid fraud. The last two fit the description of the property you are trying to buy and soon the last 3 will.



You only have the word of the vendor that this property is his.



He says that is solicitor told him to take out indemnity insurance in case someone turned up to claim the property but that won't help you if you are living there doing it up before you buy it.




If the house appears to be good value for what it is then there is a problem.



If it was advertised as needing a quick sale then there is also a problem.


https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4753148/mortgage-on-unregistered-property


When did the vendor find out that you needed a mortgage to buy the property? Was it recently or some time ago?

He knew as soon as we viewed we needed a mortgage as we were asked by the estate agent whilst were still there
Yes I’m aware that the indemnity won’t help us whatsoever if someone came along and made claim also I’ve reiterated him getting possessory title wouldn’t be any good to us as Skipton won’t touch it only absolute title will do. I’ve asked him to try everything he can to get site of these elusive deeds also I’ve asked if he obtained probate if there was a will even that shows his claims
Ive tried to ask as many questions as possible for him to put to his solicitor and he is getting back to me first thing
We need to make a decision on what’s best to do on one hand we get to live in the property and test it out as such by “renting” but also we know if could be a big risk of things went tits up

AnotherJoe

There's minimal risk if you rent it until the legal stuff gets done and it's registeried , as long as you just do the minimum to the property because it would be indavisabel to spend big money on it to, for example puta new kitchen and bathroom in. . Too many people here with worse case scenarios, if this was a scam they wouldn't be suggesting 6 months peppercorn rent until registration, they'd be looking to sell it ASAP.
There is one risk I can foresee due to the long timescale, if you've exchanged, what happens if your job situation changes and your mortgage offer expires and you can't get a new one to cover this purchase .

moneyistooshorttomention

Personally - I would not be a happy bunny with him at not having checked he was "good to go" before putting the house on the market.

But, in your situation, I'd accept the offer (through carefully gritted teeth and not mentioning he should have "sorted things first") and literally not spend one single penny on the house (other than changing the locks and making sure the phoneline was "sorted").

I wouldnt even give it a quick coat of paint "to be going on with" just in case. After all - worst case analysis and you do not want the house looking more attractive/modern to other potential buyers. You can live with outdated/not your taste for a few months.

If it really is a peppercorn rent (I'm thinking literally £1 per week sort of level) then I'd regard that as quid pro quo for him not having got things sorted out properly first before putting the house on the market and actually quite a good deal for me.

When you're in you are in and it would make life very difficult for him to renege on the sale to you and re-sell it over your head to someone else. Hence why I would move in in your position and regard my official future "ownership" as much more secure than if the house was sitting there empty and potentially attracting higher offers from other people.

If it took him 6 months even to get all the paperwork belatedly sorted out - that's 6 months where you are sitting pretty in the house and he can't raise the price of it on you.

Once it's properly/officially yours - then you start doing the work on it.

I would add to this the corollary of not removing any possessions left behind/doing work on the house until it's officially yours - as a protection against any risk of subsequent Facebook "shaming" if things didn't work out and you didn't buy the house after all. I'm Facebook "friends" with someone that had a couple move into her house on the promise they'd be buying it - and they sold off a lot of her possessions before she realised they'd never meant it and they moved out. You don't want to know just what is being said about them on Facebook (including nationally - as she's well-known). Sympathies are fully with her - as she's such a sweet/gentle sort of person.

macman

Rent it? Yes, fine.
Renovate it before you purchase-no!
Even if the vendor does have valid title (which you have only his word for), what happens after 6m when he can prove title but decides he doesn't want to sell it? Or if he dies and a relative inherits it?
For as long as he is the LL, then he should be responsible for any maintenance required.

Cakeguts

Sorry I keep asking questions but there are things about this situation that don't *feel* right but I don't know why.



The living there 40 years thing for example. We don't know how old he or his brother are. So he moved in when his mother died or it is his family home and he has lived there all of his 40 years. If this, what age did his mother die and what happened to his father's family.



If he didn't get probate when his mother died they will have to sort that out as well there is no guarantee that sorting out this mess will take only 6 months plus when it is sorted out he may decide to sell to someone else or it may turn out that he doesn't own it after all. If it turns out that he doesn't own the house you will be living in a house belonging to someone else. There is no way of knowing because at the moment he has no proof of ownership. The fact that he has lived there for 40 years doesn't prove ownership.



Your solicitor needs to put this question to his solicitor. It is no good asking the vendor to ask his solicior because there is no guarantee that he will do that.



Don't take anything that the vendor tells you as being the truth only deal with this through your own solicitor.

stickysituation

Ok so today I had a reply he forwarded me directly from his solicitors but first the background is he moved to the property him his brother and parents in 1964 so over 50 years his parents had a private loan to pay for the house this was paid fortnightly to a solicitor he has the rent books to show this the load was paid off in 1977 he has the deeds from 1922 when the house was first built but nothing from 1964 when they moved in which I myself find a little odd his parents passed and the house was acquired by the 2 boys I’m still unsure of whether probate/letters of admin was acquired however personally I hate the fact the bloody solicitor will drag that one out both cost and time wise (yes I know it’s not my problem) but having acquired my own mother and both grandmas probate grant on my own and might I add within 10 days not the 2 months quoted (rant over :rotfl:) it just gets my pip
Anyway here was the reply
The property is not registered at HM Land Registry and as the deeds have been lost the title to the property has to be ‘reconstructed’ to prove ownership from the initial purchase of the property in 1964 to date. This is a time consuming job for lawyers because it entails undertaking searches, collating documentation from as many sources as possible and preparing statements from any relevant parties. Once such information has been collated an application will be made to the Land Registry for the title to the property to be registered in your name. This will, however, only happen if the Land Registry is satisfied with the evidence provided. If so, the property will be registered, but will be given the lowest grade of title which is called ‘Possessory Title’. This title can be upgraded to ‘Absolute Title’ after a 12 year period has elapsed once the property is registered and no one has come forward to claim any interest in the property. Hence if the property gets registered in 2019 then a period of 12 months must expire before an application can be made to the Land Registry for the title to be upgraded to Absolute Title. The problem with a Possessory Title is that mortgage lenders are often not prepared to lend on a property with this grade of title due to the uncertainly that someone could always appear with proof that the property was actually transferred from the original owner to them. Whilst in these circumstances it would seem unlikely that this will happen given that your parents owned and lived in the property from when they purchased it until their deaths and then you have lived there since, the law is clear in that the period of 12 months has to expire.



As discussed, your buyers need to be aware of this, but I hope that the estate agents have now advised them of such and they have been able to advise their mortgage company of this.



Again as discussed the whole process could take up to six months. We have no control over how long the Land Registry could take to deal with our application. Your buyers therefore need to be made fully aware of this timeline


I’ve spoken to our mortgage company who will be happy to progress providing they provide indemnity insurance with the possessory title so that’s good
Just need to speak with our solicitor in morning
Stil I’m worried what’s best to do

Cakeguts

You mention both 12 years and 12 months so I checked and you have to wait 12 years. If the property gets possessory title you have to wait 12 years before you can apply for absolute title?



You still don't know if the father had made a will or if the mother had made a will.


There are a lot of "ifs" in there.