Faulty PCN? showing only evidence of entry and exit

kareem79

Dear All,

I've searched using the search tool, but I'm not sure if this has already been addressed, in which case I apologise, and would be grateful if you could direct me to the relevant threads.

I received a PCN "...for the alleged breach of advertised terms and conditions..."(attached, and described in footnotes). They are around registring or 'paying and displaying' a valid car parking permit. The only evidence given of this breach are two photos, one each of my entry and exit. [I had bought a ticket/parking permit completely covering the length of time parked, but this is a separate issue relative to this present query]

What I would like to ask is specifically whether this an adequate charge? I would've thought they'd need to either 1) state that they have no record of an online or telephone registration of my parking permit, or 2) show in a photo that I have no valid parking permit displayed. These would then show evidence of breaching their terms and conditions. I don't think showing entry and exit alone proves that the terms and conditions have been breached. If I had registered, or paid and displayed a valid parking permit, I would still have a photo of entry and exiting too. So such photos cannot distinguish between someone who has or has not breached the terms and conditions.

If the entry and exit photos are legally adequate, I would be grateful if this can be explained: on what basis is this adequate?

I would be grateful for any responses.

Thank you.

Footnote:
The terms and conditions :

"parking and payment terms

*where you are in possession of a valid permit you agree to park in accordance with the terms set out in the permit. All permits must be registered or clearly displayed during your parking period (please see signage for additional details)
*if you do not have a valid permit and payment is required for parking, you agree to make a payment in accordance with the tariff set out on the signage throughout the car park.
*where your vehicle registration is necessary for making payment for parking you agree to enter your full and correct vehicle registration into the payment machine and make the appropriate payment upon entry or before removing your vehicle from the car park (as specified on the tariff signage).
*we use anpr cameras. the parking time is calculated by the anpr cameras from the point of entry to the point of exit. where anpr is not in use our parking attendants will record entry and exit times. you agree to park fully within the confines of a marked parking bay.
*[about disabled blue badge]
*[about disabled concessions]
*[about parent and child]
*[about not being responsible for damage or loss]
..."

pogofish

kareem79 wrote: »

Dear All,
I've searched using the search tool, but I'm not sure if this has already been addressed, in which case I apologise, and would be grateful if you could direct me to the relevant threads.

You don't need to search as post one of the Newbies Sticky covers this completely - Please read it carefully.

kareem79

I've looked through post one on Newbies thread, and all posts there and cant seem to find anything that addresses this specific query.



Please could you help provide the link to a relevant post(s) if available.



Thank you.

Umkomaas

The only evidence given of this breach are two photos, one each of my entry and exit. [I had bought a ticket/parking permit completely covering the length of time parked, but this is a separate issue relative to this present query]

This seems a straightforward case of ANPR camera capture of entry and exit linked to the requirement to input the vehicle's registration mark (VRM). A technology used by many parking companies in order to [STRIKE]trap people[/STRIKE] manage car parking.

Did you have to enter your VRM? Did you do so? Did you do it fully? Make a slight typo in doing so? Enter the VRM of another vehicle in the family? Did the ticket show the full VRM? Do you still have it?

Which parking company please?

pogofish

kareem79 wrote: »

I've looked through post one on Newbies thread, and all posts there and cant seem to find anything that addresses this specific query.



Please could you help provide the link to a relevant post(s) if available.



Thank you.

Post 1, section 2, point 2

You are grossly overthinking this.

kareem79

Thank you for your reply Umkomaas.

With respect, I would like to focus on the query of this post per se, as I believe this is where I could best challenge the PCN. Happy to hear alternative views though.

My argument is that this evidence (entry and exit photos) only works at a 'pay before exit' type of parking. Not at a 'pay and display' or 'register a payment online or on the phone', which requires evidence of not 'displaying or registering a valid parking ticket'.

Showing an entry and exit photo at a pay and display car park will not be able to discern those who breach the terms of parking or not. (A person with a valid parking ticket would still have a photo of entry and exit).

[With regards the Vehicle reg on the parking ticket: yes it was required, and which I bought and still have. But the machine was not working properly to allow people to key in their correct vehicle reg number]

Thank you again for your help and time.

kareem79

Thanks for the reply pogofish.


I'm afraid this reply is not clear. As far as I can tell, post 1 section 2 point 2 seems to refer to this

...[section 2] "FAQS FIRST. NO THREAD IS NEEDED IF YOUR QUESTIONS ARE:
....

....[point 2] Q - ''I have read the NEWBIES thread but cannot find anything specific to my case...my case is different''.

A - NO IT ISN'T. YOU DO NOT NEED SPECIFICS. FORGET THE DETAIL, MOST CASES ARE ALL THE SAME.


...."


This information does not address the matter raised in this query.



Or were you aiming to inform of how newbies could identify previous relevant posts?. In which case, with your help, I have already looked through the thread suggested, but could not find information related to this specific query.



Please could you help provide the link to a relevant post(s) that does if available.


Thanks.

Umkomaas

As pogofish says you are really overthinking this (with respect).

You can try to engage hard pressed regulars into rather academic debate about the rights, wrongs, legalities of certain scenarios, or you can get advice about getting the ticket cancelled soonest, and out of your hair.

See if anyone wants to enter the debate.

kareem79

thank you umkomaas.


To me this is not an academic debate. This is about the law. If the PCN itself is incorrect, in this case, as I see it, making a charge or claim with inadequate proof, this is important for this forum surely, and perhaps, can help people win appeals.


Thanks.

KeithP

Send the already written blue text template appeal found in post #1 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread.

Send it unchanged - no additions or alterations necessary.

Send it as the keeper.

pogofish

kareem79 wrote: »

thank you umkomaas.


To me this is not an academic debate. This is about the law. If the PCN itself is incorrect, in this case, as I see it, making a charge or claim with inadequate proof, this is important for this forum surely, and perhaps, can help people win appeals.


Thanks.

This is a virtually unregulated "industry" - ie PPCs really do not care. They won't be interested and time and time again, we see people here with perfectly credible fact-based appeals that have failed completely.

Don't waste your time ,ours and anyone else's by barking-up the the wrong tree!