NtK appeal letter and situation

typeractive

Hi all
Current scenario: A friend received a NtK this week from UKCPS, stating a registered car had been parked at an identified site, with date and time issued and reason for a fine ‘without a valid permit or authority’.

The carpark is a ‘shared’ carpark with other companies. At the time of the allegation there was a single sign in view though it did not look explicit to the which specific area(s).

The same car park now has additional signs making clearer not to park in a specified area of the shared car park. These were erected after the alleged date.

The charge seems completely unfair as it is not obvious to someone visiting when there was only one sign, and if the stipulations are in usual day time working hours or after (my friend visited around 6.30pm) Granted it is now clearer now with more signage.

Supplied photographs show the vehicle but there is no evidence of the signage in either of the pictures just the car in the bay and windscreen.

As in the stickies thread, the notice uses the bribe tactic to reduce the fine from £100 to £60 if paid within 14 days. They also use similar wording as paragraph 9 on the POFA 2012. The letter states “The driver of the above vehicle is liable for a Parking Charge in the above amount which, at the date of this notice remains unpaid in full and for which the Balance remains outstanding.”

My friend contacted the company they were visiting to find out if this has happened before. Some have paid and one person who was just visiting took it to the local MP and paper and they got off with it. The company also said they will pass the details on of the landlord who owns all of the properties.

Thanks for reading as my friend is very stressed. Our questions at the moment:

• Should my friend contact the landlord and explain (the truth) of they were visiting the branch as usually they attend another branch in a different town where they have a branch membership (which they can prove) - is it better to do this before appealing?
  
• Does anything need to change to the draft letter below or just copy, paste and send? I recommended a line in red - any thoughts on that? We don’t want them supplying photos of signs that were erected after the date of the allegation. What about the personal details at the bottom?

———————————————————————



Re PCN number:!XXXXXX

I dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle. I deny any liability or contractual agreement. There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn.!

Since your PCN is a vague template, I require all photos taken, a clear image of the signage at the date of the allegation, and an explanation of the allegation (e.g. if you have identified a wrong VRN input at a machine, say so, and explain why your Data Protection Officer has not simply rectified it, rather than trying to punish a driver for a matter where there is nothing to deter).!

I will be making a formal complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner and to my MP, appraising all parties of the debate where Parliament agreed:!''we need to crack down on these rogue companies. They are an absolute disgrace to this country. Ordinary motorists...should not have to put up with this''.!Firms of your ilk were unanimously condemned as operating an 'outrageous scam' (Hansard 2.2.18). The BPA & IPC were heavily criticised; hardly surprising for an industry where so-called AOS members admit to letting victims 'futilely go through the motions' of appeal and that 'we make it up most of the time' (BBC Watchdog).!

Formal note:
Should you later pursue this charge by way of litigation, note that service of any legal documents by email is expressly disallowed and you are not entitled to assume that the data in this dispute/appeal remains the current address for service.
Yours faithfully,!

Keeper of the car
Friend’s Name
Friend’s Address
Friend’s Address
Friend’s postcode
Friend’s email

Fruitcake

What happened on the day is mostly irrelevant. In my opinion, your post implies the identity of the driver in a few places, and is far too long.
I suggest you start again, only referring to The Driver and The Keeper, and only including relevant points this time.

The acronyms are explained in post 5 of the NEWBIES, so print a copy off so you can refer to it easily.

Just send the template from The Keeper then read up what to do if/when it is rejected.

A landowner cancellation is always the best option.

typeractive

Hi fruitcake, I have corrected the post to try and be more concise.
Still a couple of questions there:
1. on contacting the landlord. I suspect it might be a company employing the PPC, so perhaps the landlord does not know?

2. anything comments on the letter?

Surely these companies receive these letters all the time so would be equipped to send such photos of the detailed signs etc. It does smell fishy that they have put explicit signs in place after sending out fines.

Fruitcake

Always try a landowner cancellation. I can't answer your question about telling the "truth" as I don't understand the circumstances or the implications.

Your change to the appeal template looks OK to me.

They are not fines.

The whole private parking industry is an unregulated scam. This wouldn't be the first time signs have been changed deliberately to thwart an appeal, although it could just as easily be coincidence that the scammers have decided to tighten their signage now.

It wouldn't hurt to show us the (redacted) NTK by uploading it to a web hosting site, then posting the URL here. Saying the wording is similar to the PoFA doesn't necessarily mean it complies.

Also get pics of the entrance and signage around the site in case there is any mileage there.

typeractive

Fruitcake wrote: »

Always try a landowner cancellation. I can't answer your question about telling the "truth" as I don't understand the circumstances or the implications.

Would my friend need to contact them in the same tone 'as registered keeper they visited the site to try the branch out, the signage was not clear and they usually are a member at a different branch with the supplied membership details'

Your change to the appeal template looks OK to me.

Great - thanks.

They are not fines.

The whole private parking industry is an unregulated scam. This wouldn't be the first time signs have been changed deliberately to thwart an appeal, although it could just as easily be coincidence that the scammers have decided to tighten their signage now.

You're telling me! pffft

It wouldn't hurt to show us the (redacted) NTK by uploading it to a web hosting site, then posting the URL here. You would need to change http to hxxp to create a dead link.
Saying the wording is similar to the PoFA doesn't necessarily mean it complies.

I have another friend who is techy and could possibly sort this. Basically remove all the personal details, upload it and then make the link dead.

Also get pics of the entrance and signage around the site in case there is any mileage there.

Good idea. My friend said there aren't any signs on the outer entrance of the car park, only when you're in the car park and you move from one business to the other.

I'd be surprised if it is the landlord who has put the stipulation in place, probably the company renting, but then perhaps they need to ask for permission first?

KeithP

typeractive wrote: »

I have another friend who is techy and could possibly sort this. Basically remove all the personal details, upload it and then make the link dead.

No need to fiddle about making dead links - you've been on MSE long enough to be able to post live links.

Just upload the pics to your favourite hosting site and post a link to them here.

Fruitcake

KeithP wrote: »

No need to fiddle about making dead links - you've been on MSE long enough to be able to post live links.

Just upload the pics to your favourite hosting site and post a link to them here.

I missed that bit.

typeractive

Hi everyone,

Well after a busy day and with some help from friends we have managed to scan the letter. It's available on this link (hopefully). It's a safe .pdf to download which means the quality should be good apparently.

My friend has also visited the main branch of the company they use who confirm the main membership and all previous visits have been at site A until the newly logged one at site B where the parking fine occurred. We have this in an email.

We also have the landowner's email address.

Should my friend email the landowner, in very simple language such as "On XX/XX/XX i visited COMPANY BRANCH B for the first time to use this branch. I am shocked to receive a parking charge when the signage was not clear as to where not to park in an open access carpark. As you can see I usually visit COMPANY BRANCH A from their records and confirmation. Since receiving this charge I notice there is a lot more signage in place...etc etc Yours sincerely, name of the driver"

Or do we need to still refrain from admitting who the driver was. If that's the case I suspect it's going to be very difficult to get the message across! :rotfl:

KeithP

How many seats in your friend's car? More that one?

Could your example be written as:

"On XX/XX/XX my friend and I visited COMPANY BRANCH B for the first time to use this branch. We were shocked to receive a parking charge when the signage was not clear as to where not to park in an open access carpark. As you can see we usually visit COMPANY BRANCH A from their records and confirmation. Since receiving this charge I notice there is a lot more signage in place...etc etc Yours sincerely, name of the keeper"

I've underlined the changes.

The driver does not have as much protection as the keeper.
Read post #1 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread for details of why.

typeractive

KeithP wrote: »

How many seats in your friend's car? More that one?

Could your example be written as:

"On XX/XX/XX my friend and I visited COMPANY BRANCH B for the first time to use this branch. We were shocked to receive a parking charge when the signage was not clear as to where not to park in an open access carpark. As you can see we usually visit COMPANY BRANCH A from their records and confirmation. Since receiving this charge I notice there is a lot more signage in place...etc etc Yours sincerely, name of the keeper"

I've underlined the changes.

The driver does not have as much protection as the keeper.
Read post #1 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread for details of why.

Yes, they have more than one seat. That could be a good approach. Any thoughts on the letter my friend received? Could you see it OK?

Fruitcake

typeractive wrote: »

Hi everyone,

Well after a busy day and with some help from friends we have managed to scan the letter. It's available on this link (hopefully). It's a safe .pdf to download which means the quality should be good apparently.

My friend has also visited the main branch of the company they use who confirm the main membership and all previous visits have been at site A until the newly logged one at site B where the parking fine occurred. We have this in an email.

We also have the landowner's email address.

Should my friend email the landowner, in very simple language such as "On XX/XX/XX i visited COMPANY BRANCH B for the first time to use this branch. I am shocked to receive a parking charge when the signage was not clear as to where not to park in an open access carpark. As you can see I usually visit COMPANY BRANCH A from their records and confirmation. Since receiving this charge I notice there is a lot more signage in place...etc etc Yours sincerely, name of the driver"

Or do we need to still refrain from admitting who the driver was. If that's the case I suspect it's going to be very difficult to get the message across! :rotfl:

I can't access your document from that link.

You need to upload it something like postimg.cc or tinypic or similar, then post the UTL here.