URGENT fighting County Court Claim for PCN

Coupon-mad

Send a copy in the post as well and get a free certificate of posting as proof (NOT RECORDED DELIVERY).

OK it will arrive 'late' but they will then have no leg to stand on to object, and you can always tell the Judge they lied, if asked about it.

adambuzz14

So, today is the day, i'm in court against VCS.
Ive got all my paperwork ready to go, i'm just curious how to go about my costs, as i work freelance and can get paid varying amounts day to day...

Le_Kirk

Good Luck! Have you already submitted a costs schedule? Normally defendants are advised to take a recent wage slip but in your case you might want to take an invoice or two to show your typical daily earnings. You will be limited to £95 I believe plus expenses (petrol, parking at the court etc.)

adambuzz14

I have my cost schedule with me, as i was told to just bring it on the day. So it has not been submitted before now, but they haven't submitted theirs either.

I've just been introduced to the guy representing VCS who tells me he is in no way connected to them, isnt a witness and is soley here to present what VCS have provided.

He also told me that if they win, he will be claiming his fee of £180 on top of everything else.

nosferatu1001

He cant claim his fee
CPRs make it VERY clear that, in small claims, no side gets legal costs unless one side has been unreaosnable.

adambuzz14

Sooo... bit of a nervy experience, but please to say i won. After a bit of convincing, it turns out the Judge thinks a 'This is not a parking charge notice', is in fact a parking charge notice...

Coupon-mad

And we agree. A notice to driver that invites the person to pay or appeal, is clearly a Notice to Driver!

Is that what won it, no POFA compliance?

Can you tell us which court and Judge it was, and type a detailed court report about your whole day's experience, to reassure others that it's not like the Lion's Den?

What was the rep like, and what was his face like when they lost?

Did he find it hard to argue about the PCN?

Did you get your costs?

WELL DONE! :T

ANOTHER ONE BITES THE DUST!

beamerguy

adambuzz14 wrote: »

He also told me that if they win, he will be claiming his fee of £180 on top of everything else.

Well done, another whooping for VCS:T:T

So the joker VCS sent to court can claim his £180 from VCS :rotfl:
HE LOST

This could be "one in the eye" for the VCS .... "this is not a parking charge" scam

Wonder what brain of britain thought that one up ???

adambuzz14

So...
I got to court and was introduced by the usher to a young gentleman (who’s name I cant remember) and he asked if I wanted to go into a room and chat. I said no. He proceeded to talk to me in the foyer and basically just said he isn’t VCS, he doesn’t work for VCS, he is impartial, he isn't a witness, all he is here to do is present the information VCS have given him. I wasn’t sure how to take this, but he seemed quite genuine. All he asked from me is we keep things respectful, which I had no problem with.
He told me how it would work, the judge would ask him to go first etc and then it'd be my turn. He said the key thing was just to keep it civil and I would get ample opportunity to put my side across. He then told me if VCS won, he would be asking for his £180 fee on top of the original amount claimed, court fees etc, but he also told me just as we went in not to worry about it, as the judge rarely awards his fee. He also told me he was happy for me to ask for costs if I won.
I sat and waited and was reading through my WS when I was called in. The judge explained what was going to happen, told me VCS guy would go first, then it would be my turn, and then VCS would be allowed to answer any points I raised. The judge said both WS's were relatively large and comprehensive, but that he had read through both. The judge knew I hadn’t done anything like this before and seemed quite friendly and accommodating.
The VCS guy didn’t really say anything more than what VCS have already mentioned in their WS, he wasn’t aware of the car park or signage or anything. His basic points were that VCS have never claimed the ‘This is not a Parking charge’ notice was a NTD or PCN, and it is only a warning card. he then went on to talk about contracts and signage showing VCS photos and saying 'you can clearly see the signage next to the defendant’s vehicle'. The judge at this point asked him to point out the signage. VCS guy implied the signage was obvious and ponied it out, to which the judge kind of smirked and said it wasn’t. The judge and the VCS guy were trying to work out how close the sign in the photo was to the vehicle, guessing between them and I offered to tell them, but the judge said no it was fine, I’ll get my chance. The VCS guy guessed it was 2 or 3 steps away from the car (totally wrong).
When it came to my turn, it was a bit of a blur and I feel I waffled my way through a bit, but the judge was very accommodating as i had never done this before.
I started off talking about how the ‘this is not a parking charge notice’, clearly is a PCN, but the judge was having none of it. He cut me off and said 'the claimant has already stated that the card was not a parking charge notice'. I tried to push the subject, but the judge kept shutting me down. I was trying to point out that whilst they say it isn’t one, what they are using it for, clearly is a PCN, but the judge kept saying he's already accepted that it isn’t a PCN. I tried to explain to the judge that even in their own Witness Statement, VCS have tripped themselves up once or twice by stating it is not a PCN, but then in other paragraphs saying that their warden left a PCN on the windscreen. The judge just didn’t seem to get it, and even said he isn't bothered what they have said in their WS before, and that because at this moment in time, they are telling him it was never intended as a PCN, then He is accepting that it isn’t one.
I went on to talk about POFA and the IPC code of practice and how VCS haven’t followed either, so have to right to gain details from DVLA or peruse myself as the registered keeper. The judge stopped me and told me I can’t say that they haven’t followed POFA as that’s just my opinion. I told the judge I would prove they haven’t followed POFA.
I went on to demonstrate the incorrect 28 days wording on the NTK. The wording of Day after 28 days from date of issue vs the day after 28 days from date it was given. Myself, the judge and the VCS guy spent a while muddling through POFA to find the exact wording, and once we find it the judge asked why this was an issue. He asked me had the difference in a day or two affected or disadvantaged me in anyway. I told him no it hadn’t, but from my understanding, POFA is law so must be followed to the letter, whether that extra day has affected me or not. Again, I don’t think he got it and implied I was splitting hairs over wording.
I then went back to the windows PCN /NTD by trying to demonstrate to the judge that there are 2 routes that the PPC can take when issuing a PCN, the ANPR route and the none ANPR route. I showed him both these in the IPC code of conduct. He stopped and asked me what ANPR was. Lol
When I pointed out that there is a different process for each, and VCS are trying to mix and match the two, the judge asked me where it said in legislation that they couldn’t do this. I tried to point out to him that its not about whether it says they can’t do this, it’s the fact the rules say there are 2 routes, one involved ANPR and one not involving ANPR, and there are clear instructions about the process you have to follow for each.
I then went on to tell the judge that both IPC and POFA state that if a notice was affixed to the window, they now had to wait 28 days until sending the NTK. He asked me to prove this. I found it in the IPC wording, but struggled to find it in the POFA. I did have all my relevant sections in my evidence etc, but I found myself in a situation where I had so much paperwork infront of me, it was hard to pin point what I needed. The judge asked the VCS man whether he knew of the wording I was referring to, to which the VCS man helpfully found which bit he thought I was on about and backed me up. There were even points in the proceedings where myself, and the judge were sat search POFA on our phones, with the VCS man skim reading a paper copy, all looking for bits of POFA that back me up.
The judge even asked the VCS guy if I was right, to which the VCS guy replied ‘I can see where he is coming from’. The judge then asked the VCS man if he thought this made means I wasn’t liable for the PCN, to which the VCS man said ‘I’ve seen some judges agree with this, I’ve seen other disagree with this’. I was starting to get the impression the VCS guy really wasn’t here to fight me, but in fact was more impartial as he had suggested at the start.
I think it was here that I started to win the judge around to thinking the card on the windscreen was in fact a NTD/PCN. I told him that the card was intended for the driver, that it said on it only for the driver, that the serial number of the card was the PCN number, I told him you could immediately go on line and view, pay or challenge the charge with the serial number from the card. I told him they were 2 parts of the same thing. I used the analogy that if I washed his car and did such a bad job, I wouldn’t be able to say ‘well I didn’t actually wash your car though’. I said that this is what VCS were doing. They were completely ignoring POFA and making such a bad job of their NTD to then be able to try and claim that it isn’t actually a NTD.
We had taken quite a lot of time up at this point and the judge asked me to move on. I went on to talk about signage and how poor it was. I pointed out that all of the photos of signage provided by VCS were from 2014 whilst the contravention was 2017, so there was no proof to show the state of the signage at the time of offence. I pointed out that there is no signage at the entrance, even though IPC request this. I stated that only 3 signs were in the car park, all around A4 size, all above head height, all on one wall which was covered with boarded up windows, air vents, posters and graffiti. I told him that even in the daylight phots the signs were hard to see, so because this occurred at 8.30pm, in an unlit car park in December, it was impossible the driver had seen any signage.
I showed the judge my images that I had been back to take after the court papers arrived and pointed out the view, even with headlights on was poor. We spent a bit of time trying to work out where the car was parked in relation to the signage and to dis prove VCS claims the sign was 3 to 4 steps away. The judge actually concluded the signage was more like 4-5 car lengths away, all on the back wall with my vehicle being parked at the front of the car park no where near the signage.
The judge spotted something that I hadn’t even seen or raised in court myself, and spend a good few mins trying to work out the location of the signage in relation to the site plan/map provided by VCS. He said that whilst the signage was close the position of the map, they were all slightly different positions, and none post mounted as indicated in the map.
The judge said he’d heard enough about signage and asked me to move on. I then started to talk about VCS v Quayle and Excel v Lamoureux. The judge stopped me and said these had no relevance to my case as the facts will be different. I tried to explain that these were cases where a judge had decided the PPC couldn’t peruse the registered keeper if POFA hadn’t been followed, and that’s what VCS were doing here.
He then asked me if I had any other points, so I went on to talk about attempted double recovery and how what they were trying to charge for none existent debt recovery fees. The judge asked me where it stated this, again we looked through POfA pointed out the relevant areas.
The judge told me he didn’t want to cut me off, but he had another case starting in 10 mins so really had to hurry me. He asked the VCS guy if he wanted to respond. The VCS guy asked me 3 questions, had I used that car park before, to which I said no. Did I want to name the driver, to which I said no, and would the driver have had my permission to use the vehicle, to which I said yes. The VCS man said in this case then he would be suggesting that the driver would have been acting as an agent for the registered keeper, so that I would still be liable. He also recapped his points that VCS don’t claim the window ticket to be a PCN and that whilst only 3 signs in the car park, they would have been enough for the driver to enter into contract with VCS.
The judge said he was going to pass his judgment and started talking into the microphone. He summarised everything the VCS man had said and then started summarising everything I had said. He kind of started off with signage for my summery and said at this point he was dismissing the VCS case with one of the reasons being signage. He then went on to say I had raised many other valid points. He talked about the NTK coming 8 days after the window sticker and that to him the window sticker clearly was a NTD. He stated that even if you write ‘this is not a PCN’ on a window sticker, no amount of words can legally stop it from still being a PCN. He talked about how the NTK was null and void because 28 days had not been given. He talked about their attempt at trying to claim more than the amount on the NTK, but said it was irrelevant now anyway as the NTK was void.
Even though I feel I had a really water tight Witness statement, I feel presenting it in court is a totally different story. I feel you need to speak to the judge as if he/she has no clue of what you are talking about, as these guys may be judges, but they are not parking experts. They know of POFA, but from my experience, they don’t really know the ins and outs of it. Our judge at one point referred to POFA as being extremely over complicated and worded poorly.
He asked me if I had any costs. I requested the full £95 for days earnings, parking and mileage to which the VCS guy agreed. I had also asked for 8 hours at £19 per hour and whilst the judge said he understood why I had requested this he would have to decline it. He said that just because VCS had submitted floored evidence and had lost, he can’t just deem somebody as being irresponsible on losing alone.
In hindsight, I wish I had just read my witness statement out in court and then elaborated on points where the judge stopped me to ask questions. I know the judge said he read it, but between me and VCS, we provided over 100 pages, so he wouldn’t have taken it all in and understood it word for word. I had all my quotes from IPC and POFA, but when it actually came to addressing that point, some of them where hard to find in my evidence bundle. The judge told me that the code of practice and POFA don’t need to be submitted as evidence, but still could be used in court. So I feel rather than having bracketed numbers in my WS referring to pages of pofa or IPC in my evidence bundle, its almost better to just copy and paste the specific line into your WS and then have a copy POFA on had if you need to elaborate further.
I would also say you REALLY need to know what you are talking about with POFA and IPC code of practice. Its one thing using what other people have told you on these forums, or other witness statements as templates, or getting others to help you or even write it for you, but if you don’t know what it all actually means in a wider context, then how are you going to convince a judge when he wants you to explain in detail. As I said earlier, the judge was aware of POFA, but didn’t know the ins and outs of it, and to even the cleverest of people, it can easily come across as complicated legal wording. There were times I quoted POFA and the judge just didn’t get it, but with me knowing the bits of POFA I have researched, and what I feel they meant in relation to my case, I was able to get the judge to see my interpretation of the wording rather that him just making his own understanding of wording on a sheet of paper.
All in all, it was an experience and something I have learned a lot from and glad I have experienced. It was quite cool sitting in that room and hearing I had won. I am on the fence though at the conclusion, as on one hand, I wanted to fight this all the way, but on the other, the time (literally days), effort and frustration I have spent on this, has cost me far more than the £60 I could have originally paid to have had it go away right at the start. I guess that’s a decision personal to the individual, but without people fighting the PPC’s, it will never get better.

Coupon-mad

I went on to talk about POFA and the IPC code of practice and how VCS haven’t followed either, so have to right to gain details from DVLA or peruse myself as the registered keeper.

I then went on to tell the judge that both IPC and POFA state that if a notice was affixed to the window, they now had to wait 28 days until sending the NTK. He asked me to prove this. I found it in the IPC wording, but struggled to find it in the POFA. I did have all my relevant sections in my evidence etc, but I found myself in a situation where I had so much paperwork infront of me, it was hard to pin point what I needed. The judge asked the VCS man whether he knew of the wording I was referring to, to which the VCS man helpfully found which bit he thought I was on about and backed me up.

Well done again and what a good court report!

To help newbies trying to learn from this, EXCEL V SMITH (Appeal case - transcript is in the Parking Prankster's case law pages online) would have trumped Excel v Lamoureux and VCS v Quayle because Excel v Smith was on appeal/higher level than county court first instance hearings and is persuasive (i.e. Judges have to pay regard to these cases) and because it kicks the idea into touch that a driver acts on an 'agency' basis on behalf of an individual registered keeper!

It is reprehensible that VCS and Excel still try that at hearings when they flounder re the POFA.

I love the fact you talked the Judge from this:

I started off talking about how the ‘this is not a parking charge notice’, clearly is a PCN, but the judge was having none of it. He cut me off and said 'the claimant has already stated that the card was not a parking charge notice'.

I tried to push the subject, but the judge kept shutting me down. The judge just didn’t seem to get it, and even said he isn't bothered what they have said in their WS before, and that because at this moment in time, they are telling him it was never intended as a PCN, then He is accepting that it isn’t one.

...to this!

He then went on to say I had raised many other valid points.

He talked about the NTK coming 8 days after the window sticker and that to him the window sticker clearly was a NTD. He stated that even if you write ‘this is not a PCN’ on a window sticker, no amount of words can legally stop it from still being a PCN. He talked about how the NTK was null and void because 28 days had not been given.

:T

You just demonstrated why people need to turn up in person and be familiar with the POFA!

Can you tell us please, which court and Judge it was, and your Claim Number now it's over, so that others can quote it and say:

''at xxxxxxx court on 31.5.19, in claim number xxxxxxxxx, District Judge xxxxxxx held that the Defendant's point about the POFA was valid, and that ''the NTK coming 8 days after the window sticker was premature and that the window sticker clearly was a NTD. He stated that even if you write ‘this is not a PCN’ on a window sticker, no amount of words can legally stop it from still being a PCN...the NTK was null and void because 28 days had not been given''.