Fire safety

TJ27

This might sound a bit wierd but but I think the reason they've relaxed the requirement for door closers is because people almost always prop open fire doors anyway. In my experience, usually with a fire extinguisher!

The theory is that if you don't fit a closer then there is actually a higher probability that the door will be shut when the occupant is in the room.

There is also an argument that fire extinguishers should not be provided, because in the event of fire you should get out and not fight it. However, they may also assist egress.

Sometimes it's difficult to know what to do for the best.

Tim_Deegan

telfordwhite wrote: »

With respect Tim I don't believe you. I work in the Emergency services and the number of people dying in fires is miniscule compared to the population and is miniscule in relation to other causes of traumatic death.
Many firefighters have never been to a fatal fire and most go to very few in their careers so I don't see how you can have seen enough to make this judgement.

And as for whether they had doors open or closed or whether this had any effect on their survival or not, surely this evidence is anecdotal or guesswork at best.

You may work in the emergency services, but you don't say which service?

I have been a firefighter for 15 years, and for someone to suggest that the evidence for or against keeping a door open closed is 'anecdotal or guesswork at best' is avery nieve statement.

You obviously haven't been into burning buildings and seen the difference that having doors open or closed makes......I have.

It only takes a small amount of smoke to set a smoke alarm off. The facts say that there are very few fire deaths in houses correctly fitted with working smoke detectors. I have been to a number of fire deaths, and none of them had working smoke detectors.

Even with a fire right outside a door, it should give you at least 20 mins protection. The advice we give if trapped in a room is to try and block any gaps under the door with bedding. Then if you have a phone in the room call 999. If you don't then shout out of the window for help. Jumping from a window is a very last resort. if you do need to jump, then throw bedding out of the window to land on. Then hang from the window sill and drop.

As for self closers. They are fitted to take away the need to make sure doors are closed. Anyone who props them open could cost someones life. The actual circumstances where closers are required would depend on the building and it's use.

Tim_Deegan

TJ27 wrote: »

This might sound a bit wierd but but I think the reason they've relaxed the requirement for door closers is because people almost always prop open fire doors anyway. In my experience, usually with a fire extinguisher!

The theory is that if you don't fit a closer then there is actually a higher probability that the door will be shut when the occupant is in the room.

There is also an argument that fire extinguishers should not be provided, because in the event of fire you should get out and not fight it. However, they may also assist egress.

Sometimes it's difficult to know what to do for the best.

Fire extinguishers should be positioned on the escape route and in a place of reative safety. So that people will be on the safe side of a fire before they decide to tackle it or not.

Our advice is to get out, then call the fire service out. However human nature means that some people will try to tackle fires.

TJ27

Tim_Deegan wrote: »

Fire extinguishers should be positioned on the escape route and in a place of reative safety.

Absolutely. We generally specify one per floor, positioned as you say. The problem is that people very often move them, set them off for a laugh, use them to prop open doors, etc.

No extinguisher at all is better than an empty one for example. I saw an inventory recently which said that a fire extinguisher was provided but also said that it was empty. So not only might it tempt somebody to fight a fire, it wouldn't do anything anyway!

Most people are not trained in their use either. We had a case a little while ago where an elderly gentleman used an extinguisher to fight a fire. He was actually a retired firefighter and was used to turning extinguishers upside down before discharging them. He did so to a modern extinguisher and did himself a serious injury. So if they are provided , people should know how to use them.

The reason my council are probably going to do away with extinguishers in houses is because our local fire service have advised us that on balance it's the best thing to do.

Tim_Deegan

TJ27 wrote: »

Absolutely. We generally specify one per floor, positioned as you say. The problem is that people very often move them, set them off for a laugh, use them to prop open doors, etc.

No extinguisher at all is better than an empty one for example. I saw an inventory recently which said that a fire extinguisher was provided but also said that it was empty. So not only might it tempt somebody to fight a fire, it wouldn't do anything anyway!

Most people are not trained in their use either. We had a case a little while ago where an elderly gentleman used an extinguisher to fight a fire. He was actually a retired firefighter and was used to turning extinguishers upside down before discharging them. He did so to a modern extinguisher and did himself a serious injury. So if they are provided , people should know how to use them.

The reason my council are probably going to do away with extinguishers in houses is because our local fire service have advised us that on balance it's the best thing to do.

I didn't know that some councils supplied them. My local council doesn't.

TJ27

Tim_Deegan wrote: »

I didn't know that some councils supplied them. My local council doesn't.

Nor does mine. We do tell landlords to supply them though. But, like I say, the requirement will probably change in the not too distant future.

Edit: Hang on, I might be confusing peope here. Just to clarify, I work for the council.

telfordwhite

Tim_Deegan wrote: »

I have been a firefighter for 15 years, and for someone to suggest that the evidence for or against keeping a door open closed is 'anecdotal or guesswork at best' is avery nieve statement.

You obviously haven't been into burning buildings and seen the difference that having doors open or closed makes......I have.

Tim, I am not arguing about the ability of a closed door to hold back a fire I am arguing that there is no evidence that closing them in a house will save any lives. (may be different in a block of flats) This is not naivete just a different rationale.
For instance What if a fire occurs inside an occupied room with a closed door where the occupant is asleep. There will be a delay in a smoke alarm on the landing being activated. It will also be more difficult to exit the room. It's all swings and roundabouts.

You say you have been a firefighter for 15 years so I would guess you have been to maybe 3 fatal fires? I would be surprised if the lack of self closing doors would have been responsible for any of these deaths, there is certainly not enough data for your experience to be anything other than guesswork despite your claims. Obviously on any given day it may be a factor but as I argued previously the risk is miniscule. Not worth the day to day hassle of self closing doors.

guppy

I think self-closing doors pre-date domestic smoke detectors. These weren't common until relatively recently. Anyway, I doubt the rationale behind the doors was based exclusively on Tim's personal experiences, but rather from the overall statistics gathered nationally.

As I said before...how many deaths does it take to justify a given safety measure? One, five, a hundred? Where should the line be drawn between convenience and safety?

In a typical house or flat the doors might not be necessary, but in a house over three or four floors, the person asleep at the top has a long way to go to get to safety, as I understand it, the doors keep smoke and fire out of the landing and stairwells. Makes perfect sense to me

Jonbvn

I have worked in the oil industry for some time across the globe. As you can imagine HSE and fire safety are very important in my line of work. We don't have HSE because it is trendy and fashionable, but because it has been shown to reduce risk.

I view some posts regarding the inconvenience of life savings devices with some incredulity.

The last I looked, you only get one life. Don't die from ignorance.

Tim_Deegan

telfordwhite wrote: »

Tim, I am not arguing about the ability of a closed door to hold back a fire I am arguing that there is no evidence that closing them in a house will save any lives. (may be different in a block of flats) This is not naivete just a different rationale.
For instance What if a fire occurs inside an occupied room with a closed door where the occupant is asleep. There will be a delay in a smoke alarm on the landing being activated. It will also be more difficult to exit the room. It's all swings and roundabouts.

You say you have been a firefighter for 15 years so I would guess you have been to maybe 3 fatal fires? I would be surprised if the lack of self closing doors would have been responsible for any of these deaths, there is certainly not enough data for your experience to be anything other than guesswork despite your claims. Obviously on any given day it may be a factor but as I argued previously the risk is miniscule. Not worth the day to day hassle of self closing doors.

I have actually lost count of the number of fire deaths that I have been to. I have also lost two friends in compartment fires.

A closed door will only give a slight delay in the activation of a smoke alarm due to their sensitivity.

As for door closers, to be honest I don't care as long as the doors are closed. Door closers just take away the responsibility of the occupier to close the doors.

The fact is that doors hold back fire and smoke and save lives......you can't argue against that.