vodafone charges for calling 08435047178 (esa number)

zagfles

Ian011 wrote: »

When calling genuine premium rate services, on e.g. 09 numbers, where a Service Charge of e.g. £2 or perhaps £3.60 per minute is levied, the Access Charge is a minor component of the overall cost of the call. By necessity, the Access Charge is the same level irrespective of which 084, 087, 09 or 118 nunber was called.

By what necessity? Some brain dead Ofcom rule to make pricing "simple" (but very high for these numbers)?

Given that these charges are widely publicised,

If they were so "widely publicised" I doubt the OP would have called the number

I put the blame on the services using those 084 or 087 numbers.

Also Vodafone for setting a ridiculously high access charge, also Ofcom for their moronic changes a few years ago which massively increased the cost of these calls.

It is worth noting that even if the Access Charge were zero, you would, in this case, still be paying 7p (084 number) or 13p (087 number) per minute to a scammer. Efforts are rightly being made to eliminate this scam, not reduce the price of it.

Indeed, it is the high price of these calls that causes most people to realise this is not the official number of the organisation or business they wanted to call and to not call the number.

So it's better that the OP is scammed out of 62p/min than getting scammed out of 7p/min :rotfl:

Now that usage of 084 and 087 numbers is banned for most purposes there is almost no need to ever call these numbers. Indeed, the time must be coming where these number ranges can be withdrawn from use.

They were very useful for international callthroughs. Simple, easy way to call abroad cheaply, without any upfront payment. But now killed by this ridiculous "access charge".

Ian011

zagfles wrote: »

By what necessity? Some brain dead Ofcom rule to make pricing "simple" (but very high for these numbers)?

The Access Charge is the cost of connecting and conveying the call, all of it retained by the called party's telecoms provider. There is no difference in cost incurred in conveying a call to an 084 number than to an 09 number. Ofcom's changes brought transparency to the charges helping users to see clearly why they should stop using 084 and 087 numbers, not least the extremely low revenue share payout compared both to the service charge element and to the total paid by the caller.

zagfles wrote: »

If they were so "widely publicised" I doubt the OP would have called the number.

These call charges changed more than three years ago and were publicised in the eighteen months prior to that. There will always be people who missed the memo. More education will help. Call 03 and 080 numbers. Do not call 084 and 087 numbers.

zagfles wrote: »

Also Vodafone for setting a ridiculously high access charge, also Ofcom for their moronic changes a few years ago which massively increased the cost of these calls.

Vodafone's Access Charge is the same as O2, Three and EE and all of those are cheaper than Virgin Mobile (currently 58p per minute). The changes in 2015 massively reduced the cost of calling 09 and 118 numbers, especially from mobiles but increased the charges for calling 084 and 087 numbers. However, these changes were not made in isolation, they occured around the time that BIS banned the usage of these numbers by retailers, traders and passenger transport companies, the FCA banned usage of these numbers by banks, card companies and insurers and the Cabinet Office banned the use of these numbers by government departments, their agencies and contractors.

zagfles wrote: »

So it's better that the OP is scammed out of 62p/min than getting scammed out of 7p/min :rotfl:

It is better that the scam was ended. Changes to Ofcom regulation coming in the next couple of months, and to PSA regulation shortly after that, aim to do just that.

zagfles wrote: »

They were very useful for international callthroughs. Simple, easy way to call abroad cheaply, without any upfront payment. But now killed by this ridiculous "access charge".

Those callthough services relied on an obscure Oftel/Ofcom regulation (the NTS Retail Condition) that applied only to BT retail charges. With BT no longer having a monopoly in the supply of telecoms services, that regulation had to go. Given that termination charges were aligned with BT retail charges, a new call charge system and new settlement/wholesale system was required. It was a stroke of genius for Ofcom to split the charges and impose full transparency on these call charges. Since that time, usage of these numbers has massively declined. It cannot be too long before it is proposed to remove these number ranges.

There are plenty of dialthrough providers using 03 or 080 numbers so the market is far from dead. It's just the market for 084 and 087 numbers that has decined.

zagfles

Ian011 wrote: »

The Access Charge is the cost of connecting and conveying the call, all of it retained by the called party's telecoms provider. There is no difference in cost incurred in conveying a call to an 084 number than to an 09 number.

What about an 03 number then? Please explain why it costs 55p/min more to convey a 084 call than an 03 call. You know full well it costs nothing like that, Vodafone and others are simply profiteering from the so called "access charge".

Ofcom's changes brought transparency to the charges helping users to see clearly why they should stop using 084 and 087 numbers, not least the extremely low revenue share payout compared both to the service charge element and to the total paid by the caller.

And yet 3 years after these changes, the likes of the OP are getting screwed by this. Before Ofcom's genius changes, the OP would have paid 25p/min on Vodafone. Still expensive, but nowhere near the current 62p/min. I'm sure he's really grateful to those geniuses at Ofcom.

These call charges changed more than three years ago and were publicised in the eighteen months prior to that. There will always be people who missed the memo. More education will help. Call 03 and 080 numbers. Do not call 084 and 087 numbers.

Yeah blame the OP. I'd be willing to bet well over half the population don't understand the pricing of 084/087 numbers.

Vodafone's Access Charge is the same as O2, Three and EE and all of those are cheaper than Virgin Mobile (currently 58p per minute).

So where's the competition? It's like roaming charges used to be. But the EU put a stop to this, as they were able to recognise and end such ripoffs. Unlike Ofcom.

The changes in 2015 massively reduced the cost of calling 09 and 118 numbers, especially from mobiles but increased the charges for calling 084 and 087 numbers. However, these changes were not made in isolation, they occured around the time that BIS banned the usage of these nunbers by retailers, traders and passenger transport companies, the FCA banned usage of these numbers by banks, card companies and insurers and the Cabinet Office banned the use of these numbers by government departments, their agencies and contractors.

Yet time and time again we have people getting ripped off by these numbers. As you well know, as you reply to them on threads like this. And not only connection scams, often big companies like Sky, as in this thread https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5898225/ridiculous-call-charge-after-calling-sky-to-upgrade

It is better that the scam was ended. Changes to Ofcom regulation coming in the next couple of months, and to PSA regulation shortly after that, aim to do just that.

Why not just ban the numbers completely then, instead of all these brain dead changes to them?

Those callthough services relied on an obscure Oftel/Ofcom regulation (the NTS Retail Condition) that applied only to BT retail charges. With BT no longer having a monopoly in the supply of telecoms services, that regulation had to go. Given that termination charges were aligned with BT retail charges, a new call charge system and new settlement/wholesale system was required. It was a stroke of genius for Ofcom to split the charges and impose full transparency on these call charges. Since that time, usage of these numbers has massively declined. It cannot be too long before it is proposed to remove these number ranges.

There are plenty of dialthrough providers using 03 or 080 numbers so the market is far from dead. It's just the market for 084 and 087 numbers that has decined.

I used to use my TalkTalk landline to call Europe, Australia, NZ etc for around 2p/min just using my phone. No upfront payment needed, no need to give credit card details to an uncontactable third party provider. If it didn't work I'd lose a few pence. All charges in my phone bill. Maybe you can point me at a callthrough service offering the same that actually works.

Low service charge numbers were useful to make micro payments easily for a service, now they've been killed by those geniuses at Ofcom. Anyone with an ounce of common sense could have come up with a far better solution, like letting the network keep a percentage of the service charge rather than a flat amount on top of it.

Ian011

zagfles wrote: »

What about an 03 number then? Please explain why it costs 55p/min more to convey a 084 call than an 03 call. You know full well it costs nothing like that, Vodafone and others are simply profiteering from the so called "access charge".

For those who do not have an inclusive calls allowance (or exceed the allowance), the per minute charge for calling an 01, 02 or 03 number is usually the same rate as the Access Charge for calling 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers.

Where callers have inclusive calls, this covers calls to landline numbers and mobile numbers, but with very few exceptions (i.e. 0845 and 0870 numbers when called from some landlines), does not include any part of the charge for calls to premium rate numbers. When the inclusive allowance is exceeded, the per minute charge for calling 01, 02 and 03 numbers is again usually set at the same rate as the Access Charge for calling 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers.

And yet 3 years after these changes, the likes of the OP are getting screwed by this. Before Ofcom's genius changes, the OP would have paid 25p/min on Vodafone. Still expensive, but nowhere near the current 62p/min. I'm sure he's really grateful to those geniuses at Ofcom.

The OP has been ripped off by a scammer posting premium rate numbers that are advertised as "connecting to" various well-known organisations and businesses. This scam will be reined in very shortly.

A little known fact... When the formulation of the various provisions of the Consumer Contracts Regulations were being discussed by ministers and officials they were minded to include 084 and 087 numbers within the definition of 'basic rate' as the per minute charges were often not dissimilar to those for 01, 02 and 03 numbers.

They had overloooked the role of inclusive calls being the normal way to call 01, 02 and 03 numbers, and were confused about the revenue sharing element of 084 and 087 numbers. It was due only to the clarity of the Ofcom reforms for 08 and 09 numbers which had only recently been proposed that eventually led BIS to conclude that 084 and 087 numbers were in fact premium rate numbers and to disallow their use for customer service lines.

The UK very nearly ended up with 084 and 087 numbers being made legal for after-sales customer service lines. In the Irish Republic, their government DID make that mistake and so consumers there are still having to call expensive 1850, 1890, 076 and 0818 numbers for after-sales enquiries and issues.

In the UK we have eliminated most usage of 084 and 087 numbers. It seems the most common usage nowadays is for scams, including wangiri scams, "call connection service" scams and a number of others.

Yeah blame the OP. I'd be willing to bet well over half the population don't understand the pricing of 084/087 numbers.

No blame is attached to the OP for falling victim to the "call connection service" scam. This scam catches thousands of people every day. This is why Ofcom and PSA are getting very serious about fixing it. Ofcom is extending the PSA regulations to cover these services where they operate on 084 and other numbers and PSA continues to issue punative penalties against operators of these services (but currently only for those operating on 087 and 09 numbers).

So where's the competition? It's like roaming charges used to be. But the EU put a stop to this, as they were able to recognise and end such ripoffs. Unlike Ofcom.

You must realise by now that competition in the telecoms sector has failed. When one operator puts up their prices, most of the others follow in short order. This applies to line rental, the price of call plans, the cost of calls when the allowance is exceeded, the cost of non-inclusive calls and texts, the cost of broadband or mobile data, and so on.

Yet time and time again we have people getting ripped off by these numbers. As you well know, as you reply to them on threads like this. And not only connection scams, often big companies like Sky, as in this thread https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5898225/ridiculous-call-charge-after-calling-sky-to-upgrade

Most companies have complied with the Regulation 41 of the Consumer Contacts Regulations 2013 but there remain some significant examples of companies ignoring or partially ignoring the rules. On the other hand, the number of complaints made to the appropriate regulators is close to zero, hence no action is taken.

Why not just ban the numbers completely then, instead of all these brain dead changes to them?

Ofcom would have found it almost impossible to withdraw the 084 and 087 ranges from use when there were tens of thousands of users and many jobs that relied on them. Ofcom have had to play the long game: greater transparency of call charges to discourage their use, coupled with the regulations from BIS and FCA and guidance from the Cabinet Office to ban their use in specific circumstances. Once overall usage has declined to low levels and incidence of scams continues to rise, Ofcom will have all the fuel they need to close these ranges for good.

I used to use my TalkTalk landline to call Europe, Australia, NZ etc for around 2p/min just using my phone. No upfront payment needed, no need to give credit card details to an uncontactable third party provider. If it didn't work I'd lose a few pence. All charges in my phone bill. Maybe you can point me at a callthrough service offering the same that actually works.

Those charges applied on calls made from BT landlines. As BT was the major supplier of 084, 087 and 09 numbers to businesses, the NTS Retail Condition mandated that BT made no margin on call origination to those numbers. This was an anomoly in the market. It meant that BT's retail call charges for calls to 084, 087 and 09 numbers varied from all other providers. Several other landline providers offered lowish call charges to 084 and 087 numbers, but made no margin on these calls while having to pay termination fees (mostly to BT). Significantly, mobile providers did not offer low price calls to these numbers and call charges were both confusing and non-transparent, leading to widespread bill shock.

In 2009, Ofcom set the scene by making the 03 range of numbers available and setting rules that ensure these calls are charged on exactly the same basis as calls to 01 and 02 numbers, including their inclusion in inclusive call allowances. Various regulations have caused widespread abandonment of 084 and 087 numbers and migration to 03 (or 080) numbers, with considerable overall benefits to consumers.

Low service charge numbers were useful to make micro payments easily for a service, now they've been killed by those geniuses at Ofcom. Anyone with an ounce of common sense could have come up with a far better solution, like letting the network keep a percentage of the service charge rather than a flat amount on top of it.

Given the Service Charge can vary from 1p per minute to £3.60 per minute can you suggest a single percentage rate that would be fair to all parties involved (caller, caller's provider, non-geographic number provider and the called party) and for all such calls? Ofcom investigated this suggestion in 2010 or 2012 and wrote it off as unfeasible.

There are a variety of dial through providers operating on 03 or 080 numbers. A number are active on various 084 or 087 numbers. If you have inclusive calls to 0845 or 0870 numbers there remain a number of ways to make all sorts of calls with no additional charges.

zagfles

Ian011 wrote: »

For those who do not have an inclusive calls allowance, the per minute charge for calling an 01, 02 or 03 number is usually the same rate as the Access Charge for calling 084, 087, 09 and 118 numbers.

Rubbish. Vodafone's main PAYG tariff, with no inclusive minutes, is PAYG1. Rate for calling normal landlines/mobiles is 20p/min capped at £1 for the day.

On PAYG1 it would have cost the OP £1 to phone an 03 number for 30 minutes, instead of £18.60 to phone the 0843 number. And if OP had inclusive minutes, as almost everyone on a contract does, it would have been zero vs £18.60.

In the UK we have eliminated most usage of 084 and 087 numbers. It seems the most common usage nowadays is for scams, including wangiri scams, "call connection service" scams and a number of others.

That's because genuine usage has been killed by the geniuses at Ofcom.

You must realise by now that competition in the telecoms sector has failed. When one operator puts up their prices, most of the others follow in short order. This applies to line rental, the price of call plans, the cost of calls when the allowance is exceeded, the cost of non-inclusive calls and texts, the cost of broadband or mobile data, and so on.

And roaming. Prices were capped. Limits on bills were imposed, opt in to exceed the limit was introduced. Problem was (mostly) sorted. That wasn't done by the useless waste of space Ofcom though, was it? It was the EU.

The same could be done for access charges etc. But it won't be while we have such a useless regulator.

Those charges applied on calls made from BT landlines.

What part of "I used to use my TalkTalk landline to call Europe, Australia, NZ etc for around 2p/min just using my phone" didn't you understand?

Given the Service Charge can vary from 1p per minute to £3.60 per minute can you suggest a single percentage rate that would be fair to all parties involved (caller, caller's provider, non-geographic number provider and the called party) and for all such calls? Ofcom investigated this suggestion in 2010 or 2012 and wrote it off as unfeasible.

The telco is just collecting the service charge and passing it on. What costs are there above the cost of terminating an 03 number? Accounting, bad debt etc? That would be better as a % charge. Normal call rate plus service charge, 10% to the telco, why wouldn't that work? Credit cards basically work in the same way, bank/VISA take a small % and retailer gets the rest, bank takes risk of bad debt etc.

There are a variety of dial through providers operating on 03 or 080 numbers. A number are active on various 084 or 087 numbers. If you have inclusive calls to 0845 or 0870 numbers there remain a number of ways to make all sorts of calls with no additional charges.

I asked for an example. I don't have inclusive 0845/0870, I don't think many tariffs do.