Millenium parking woes

Westcoastbeard

Hi all

So I am in the lucky position of being issued a postal PCN for parking at one of Millenium parking services (MSP) sites, and have followed the instructions on the newbies/sticky section and appealed (using a variation of the template letter) - which has of course been rejected.
As far as I can see, and having read the various posts on here - the next stage is to create a new POPLA appeal, using information that should be on the MPS appeal rejection notice? Am I on track so far??

MPS emailed me to say the appeal had failed. I used this wording in my appeal specifically asking for a postal response - which they seem to have completely ignored. Can I use this fact to my advantage?

"Service of any rejection letter/POPLA code and/or legal documents by email is expressly disallowed. All responses to me from this point on, must be made by post. Regardless of any MCOL online/email system, service of any court claim must only be made by first class post to the latest address provided by me."

The MPS email to say the appeal failed does also not included a 10 digit verification code (which I need for POPLA apparently according to their website) Do I need to contact MPS and ask for this 10 digit code?

I appreciate any advice here.. If we were in the wrong I would fess up and pay the ticket, but we have a legitimate case for not paying (including misleading signage - and not actually being parked inside the controlled area), and I have no intention of giving them a penny.

Thanks in advance for any tips!

Beardy.

Umkomaas

The MPS email to say the appeal failed does also not included a 10 digit verification code (which I need for POPLA apparently according to their website)

You won't be getting one as MPS are IPC operators. Only BPA operators can use POPLA. There is no worthwhile further appeal channel for IPC cases.

(using a variation of the template letter)

I worry when I see this. Please tell us how you 'varied' it - word for word.

MPS emailed me to say the appeal had failed. I used this wording in my appeal specifically asking for a postal response - which they seem to have completely ignored. Can I use this fact to my advantage?

No, trifling issue.

Other than attempting to find out who the landowner is and ask for their help in getting this overturned, you just have to see what the next move is from MPS. Probably harmless debt collector letters (ignore these), then maybe a Letter Before Claim or formal court proceedings. Do not ignore either of these, come back on this thread for more advice.

MPS are mildly litigious, and they have 6 years in which to press charges.

http://www.parkingappeals.info/companydata/Millennium_Door_and_Event_Security.html

Westcoastbeard

Thanks for your response Umkomaas.

Their rejection email states they are BPA, and have written:

We are members of the International Parking Community (IPC) of which we are an
accredited operator. We are also corporate members of the the British Parking
Association (BPA). BPA membership number: 30602, IPC membership number:
MIL0071. We are registered with the Independent Commissioners Office for data
protection, reg no: Z2389088.

I varied the letter template minimally, and added words to the effect of: The vehicle was parked outside of the gated area (the parking area in question is a gated housing area in Cardiff), that we had been advised to park outside the gated area by a resident - in order to comply with the parking arrangement, and also that their signage is inadequate and suggests that only once you enter the gated area will their enforcement become valid. The signage reads "by entering and remaining" - suggesting there is an effective boundary (and a big electric gate suggests a boundary.)

They have added in their letter that a further appeal to Independent Appeals Service (IAS) or the ombudsman service is an option. Is that worthwhile?

Thanks again for your time/advice here.

Beardy.

Umkomaas

We are members of the International Parking Community (IPC) of which we are an accredited operator.

As an accredited operator they get access to your data from the DVLA. This is the one applying in your case, not the BPA.

We are also corporate members of the the British Parking
Association (BPA)

No access to data as corporate members, they just get updates on parking matters and invites to seminars/bun fights.

They have added in their letter that a further appeal to Independent Appeals Service (IAS)

An alleged kangaroo court which promises IPC members an 80%+ success rate. We don't recommend trying as a (inevitable) loss will provide the PPC with further ammunition to wave against you in front of a Judge.

or the ombudsman service is an option.

They most certainly didn't offer that - read very carefully what it says!

nosferatu1001

They will say the ombudsmen IS NOT available.

Westcoastbeard

You have now reached the end of our internal appeals procedure.
By law we are also required to inform you that Ombudsman Services
provides an alternative dispute resolution service that would be competent
to deal with your appeal. However, we have not chosen to participate in their alternative
dispute resolution services. As such should you wish to appeal then you must do so to
the IAS, as explained above.

So the route to appeal is there.. but they choose not to recognise of participate in it. Lovely.

Thanks again for clearing up the above. Recommendation then is to do nothing - ignoring debt collection letters, and to repost on here if Letter Before Claim or formal court proceedings are notified?

As as newbie to this, the thought of debt collection letters, with the amount they are demanding increasing every time gives me the fear...

Redx

correct

debt collectors are powerless, no win , no fee

there is nothing to fear from debt collectors because they have no power to do anything, you are relating an urban myth as if its real , they could say its 2 grand , its a made up figure, not real, you may as well be afraid of THE SANDMAN or a Wendigo , or the YETI

popla was never on the cards, which you would have known if you had looked for their name on the BPA AOS list (not there) and then looked at the IPC AOS list (listed under M in 2015)

its the AOS list that determines the appeal route

Umkomaas

Thanks again for clearing up the above. Recommendation then is to do nothing - ignoring debt collection letters, and to repost on here if Letter Before Claim or formal court proceedings are notified?

Exactly. But also consider landowner contact.

As as newbie to this, the thought of debt collection letters, with the amount they are demanding increasing every time gives me the fear...

Really? Please read the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #4 about debt collectors. Why would anyone fear an organisation which has no power - other than to send letters!

Your fear is completely without any rational foundation.

Westcoastbeard

Thanks RedX.


popla was never on the cards, which you would have known if you had looked for their name on the BPA AOS list (not there) and then looked at the IPC AOS list (listed under M in 2015)

I did read a number of posts before posting here, and you'll just need to take my word for it that for a first time visitor - there is a lot of info to absorb, a lot of acronyms to get used to and, having never been on the BPA website before, seeing MPS listed as members on the BPA website does suggest they are just that, and would suggest that POPLA would have been a route. I can now see it is the operators list that is the valid issue, so lesson learned there.

Loadsofchildren123

Hello from Swansea. I love a bit of Millenium bashing.


First, once proceedings are underway you are perfectly at liberty to refuse to accept service by email. However, they'll ignore you. Millenium always say they refuse email service, but everyone emails them anyway and I'm not aware they've ever taken a point on it. You have bigger issued to deal with here, don't get bogged down with trying to be clever over email. Don't expect anything from Millenium/Gladstones anyway, they don't generally write letters after proceedings are issued.


Secondly, Millenium is run by a man who did a law degree, and his hapless assistant who is also a barmaid at one of the many Swansea establishments owned by him. Last I heard, they used Gladstones to do the LBC and issue the claim, and to act as a postbox, but then for the hearing itself they act in person. Don't expect them to settle.


Thirdly, there are some specific arguments relating to their landowner contracts and landowner authority. The few I have seen specify that they are only authorised to ticket cars reported to them as unauthorised by the landowner. So I'd be asking for a copy of that contract followed by a request for a copy of the report to the landowner. The contract is awful, really badly drafted, I'm hoping they haven't addressed these deficiencies.


Fourthly, IAS - this is an appeals service run by the people who own IPC, so it is hardly independent. We say not to bother appealing to them. However, it seems that the IAS occasionally plucks a case out of thin air and allow it to win, simply so they can say that statistically x% of appeals win. There seems to be no rhyme or reason to how they pick the winners. So it may be worth a short appeal to them.


Fifthly POFA - very important. Millenium are a bit sloppy with complying with the POFA requirements for serving a Notice to Keeper. Please tell me you haven't identified the driver, but have done everything so far as the RK? Please read the relevant schedule of POFA which explains the time limits. In my Millenium case they served the NtK out of time so if they couldn't prove who was driving (they couldn't, and there was plenty of evidence it wasn't the RK) then they were royally stuffed.


Sixthly, there are some novel arguments about who has offered any contract to park - I saw it isn't Millenium Door and Event Security Ltd, t/a Millenium Group, but it is "Millenium Parking Services" which is an entity which, by law, does not exist because it is neither a trading as name of a company, a company, a partnership, or a person or anything else that can have legal personality of its own. #


Ask Millenium for a copy of the landowner contract, including any plan attached to it showing the boundaries of the land on which they were authorised to operate, and a plan of where they say your car was parked and of where any signage is situated, plus a copy of the wording on the signage it is claimed was displayed on the site, and at its entrance. Also for any photos of your car parked on the day. They are a bit sloppy when it comes to signage and record keeping and may well rely on the wrong sign. Go back to the site and get your own photos now and start evidence gathering. My experience of Millenium was that I caused so much trouble they discontinued the night before the hearing. I kept on writing to them, I relied on not only the easy POFA/contract arguments but threw in a load of curveballs they just didn't want to deal with.

Redx

good info by LOC123 above as that is what brought her into the fray I believe


what you need to realise is that they can be members of both trade bodies , but only use one for their day to day business , which until the government change it in the new Parking Bill going through parliament and expected to be law next year, wont change

think of it this way

I could have say a Barclays Bank current account, deposit account and ISA

I could subsequently open an account with Santander, using Santander for all my direct debits, standing orders and cheques instead of the old barclays account

so all my current business is done through the newer santander account, not the older barclays account, but I still get barclays rewards, barclays newsletters and emails etc

Millenium have chosen to be corporate members of both, but only pay for ther IPC AOS services as far as day to day operations

the icons are different depending which services they use, one is a roundel (a circle) , the other is a rectangle , which you will see on the MPS website and it says Accredited Ipc Operator within that roundel, so they are accredited by the IPC

yes we know its all new to newbies, nobody said it was simple or easy and these companies try to use smoke and mirrors to deceive the public

hence why Sir Greg Knight has his Parking Bill goint throuh parliament unopposed

watch the live debates , one from feb 2018 in the commons, the other in july 2018 in the committee rooms

and watch its progress here too

https://services.parliament.uk/bills/2017-19/parkingcodeofpractice.html