0844 number stated as "charged at the national rate"

frands18

Hi all,

Firstly, apologies if this is in the wrong forum...

A while back I was one of that multitudes who were trying to get a 26-30 railcard. Called up twice the number listed on their website (0844), spent several hours on the phone and was surprised to be hit with a £150 bill after! It clearly stated on their website that this call is charged at a national rate:

You can get your Railcard over the phone too. Just call us on 0844 871 4036 (0700-2200 every day, except Christmas Day.

Calls are charged at the national rate.

Hilariously they do actually have an 0345 number which - as I know now - *would* be charged at the national rate, but it just so happens it's not listed on the page for buying the card...!

I have been in touch with them over the phone and by email making an official complaint, but I'm getting nowhere. Does anyone know what options I have and is it a solid case, or is it more like "you should've known better than to call an 0844 number and expect it to be charged at the national rate you dimwit"?

JJ_Egan

Called a service that said national rate .
Number of hours on the phone times national rate is what .

frands18

Hi,

Thanks for the reply. As far as I understand it, there is no such thing as "national rate" per se any more - it could refer to a normal landline call, which would have been inclusive to my mobile contract minutes.

ValiantSon

0844 numbers have a service charge which is set by the organisation you are calling, and an access charge which is set by your phone provider. Service charges are between 0p and 7p per minute. The number you phoned has a service charge of 7p per minute. Each provider has their own access charge rate - this is a per minute charge - and you haven't said who your provider is, but to give an idea of costs the four main networks charge:

Vodafone = 55p - One hour call costs £37.20 to 08448714036
EE = 55p - One hour call costs £37.20 to 08448714036
O2 = 55p - One hour call costs £37.20 to 08448714036
Three = 45p - One hour call costs £31.20 to 08448714036

Each minute, therefore, would have cost you 62p on Vodafone, EE or O2 and 52p on Three.

By comparison, some of the MVNOs are cheaper (but still expensive):

Giffgaff = 25p (32p total) - One hour call costs £19.20 to 08448714036
Asda = 8p (15p total) - One hour call costs £9.00 to 08448714036
BT Mobile = 30p (37p total) - One hour call costs £22.20 to 08448714036
Plusnet = 19p (26p total) - One hour call costs £15.60 to 08448714036
Tesco = 25p (32p total) - One hour call costs £19.20 to 08448714036
Virgin = 58p (65p total) - One hour call costs £39.00 to 08448714036

As you say you used your mobile, this is what I have focused on. I have also shown prices for pay monthly contracts; sometimes a provider has a different (sometimes cheaper) charge for pay as you go. Landlines also charge an access charge.

Your inclusive minutes won't cover 0844 numbers. Check your price plan and you will see that these numbers are not included.

I'm afraid that you stand very little chance of getting anywhere with your complaint, although the service charge is supposed to be made clear on the website, and it could be argued that just saying, "national rate" was inadequate.

frands18

Thank you for the detailed info! I understand that the call would never be included with contract minutes, but the usage of "charged at the national rate" confused me into thinking it would be charged like a landline.

As I understand it, and as you mention, they are required to state the cost of the call at some point so that you're aware - otherwise it would be like browsing a shop for a few hours, and being stopped on your way out at the door by a big burly man demanding £100 for the time you've spent in the shop! I'm mainly just wondering what the process is to escalate a complaint like this - it's hard to find information about 0844 numbers instead of the "proper" premium rate numbers...

mobilejunkie

Unless the network is kind you have no case. I've only ever had one useful contract which included all 08 and 03 (when they were also a special rate) and would never call a premium rate number such as the one you called except on that contract. The charges for calling such numbers will be listed by your network, not the the people with the number (since networks will charge different amounts). The national rate statement sounds like a left over from the days when such costs were relevant because most people called from land lines rather than mobiles. I also regarded them as premium rate and had lots of arguments with companies who insisted they weren't - just as I did with people using 0345 prefixes, which they insisted were local rates.

The rule I use is if in doubt, don't call them. They are always alternatives.

Herongull

I would have thought you might have a claim against the company who put the misleading information on the website (but not against your mobile provider). I don't know how compensation for misleading advertising works - can you take them to court for loss you incurred as a result of their misleading website??

Ian011

It was 0845 numbers that were "local rate", but technically this applied only when calling from a BT landline, and, in any case, this arrangement came to an end in 2004 - some fourteen years ago. Other 084 numbers have never been local rate.

Numbers starting 0870 were "national rate", but technically this applied only when calling from a BT landline, and, in any case, this arrangement also came to an end in 2004 - some fourteen years ago. Other 087 numbers have never been national rate.

Both Ofcom and ASA were so concerned about the continuing misrepresentation of call charges by businesses who were asking their customers to call an 084 or 087 number that they both issued an official note about this in 2005.

The Ofcom note is buried on their website, here (see the last section on the page):
https://www.ofcom.org.uk/phones-telecoms-and-internet/information-for-industry/policy/non-geo-call-services

The ASA note, issued in September 2005, can be found here:
http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20080728101959/http://www.cap.org.uk/cap/news_events/news/2005/Stop+the+call+confusion.htm

Before January 2004, calls from landlines to geographic nunbers starting 01 and 02 were charged by distance to destination. Calls made to numbers allocated in the same or an immediately adjacent area code to the caller were charged at "local rate". Calls made to numbers allocated to places further away were charged at "national rate".

However, all of this came to an end in January 2004. This is when the price distinction between a "local call" and a "national call" to a geographic number was scrapped and callers were moved on to call plans with inclusive call allowances covering calls to 01 and 02 numbers anywhere in the country (except calls to numbers in CI and IoM).

At the same time, the link between the price charged for calling an 01 or 02 number outside of the inclusive allowance (either because the call duration exceeded 60 minutes, or the call was made on e.g. a weekday by a customer with a "weekend calls" call plan) and calling an 0845 or 0870 number was severed forever.

After a botched attempt at reforming 0870 call charges in 2009, and amid continuing and growing confusion about all 084 and 087 call charges, in 2010 Ofcom decided to review all 084, 087, 09 and 118 call charges and sort the issue out properly. This led to at least three major consultaions over the next three years.

Eventually, the new system of call charges covering all 084, 087, 09 and 118 nunbers came into force on 1 July 2015. This change split the call cost into an Access Charge levied by the caller's phone provider and a Service Charge levied by the called party. The intention was to clearly signal that all of these numbers are premium rate - the premium is the additional Service Charge and is required to be declared immediately alongside the number everywhere the number is advertised or promoted, including on social media. This is designed to ensure that callers will always know the cost before they call - with the implication that callers will strenuously avoid calling these rip-off numbers.

The rules are explained here:
https://www.ofcom.org.uk/phones-telecoms-and-internet/advice-for-consumers/advice/uk-calling/uk-calling-for-businesses
and here:
https://www.asa.org.uk/advice-online/non-geographic-call-charges.html
It is clear the train company failed to comply.

On another note, a subset of these numbers are designated Controlled Premium Rate Services (CPRS) and subject to additional regulation by the Phone-paid Services Authority (PSA). The CPRS designation covers numbers starting 087, 09 and 118 with a Service Charge of more than 7p per minute or per call. It also covers all chatlines, all "adult" entertainment services, and all internet dialler-operated services, irrespective of call cost or prefix used.

The following steps can be taken.
1. Report the false call charge declaration to the ASA. Screenshots or pages taken from the Internet Archive website can be helpful.
2. Report the whole incident to Trading Standards via the Citizen's Advice national Consumer Helpline either via their online form or by calling 0345 404 0506.

In all cases, stick to the facts as known.

If the number had been one that is classed as a Controlled Premium Rate Service, you could have also complained to PSA. They have strict rules that disallow call queueing on numbers designated as CPRS.

At this point, it is also worth pointing out that your telephone company have done nothing wrong here. They have correctly charged a premium rate number at premium rates. There is no liability with your telephone company. Ofcom rules require the called party to state the call charges so that you know the cost before you call. The false and misleading declaration made by the train company is the problem.

The issue rests solely with the train company that you called, firstly in their utterly stupid decision to use a premium rate number costing callers, at the time, up to 62p per minute and, secondly, making a false claim about how much that number cost to call. The fact that there was a cheaper 03 number available, but they failed to mention it, is another problem.

If you have an inclusive call plan on your landline or mobile, this will cover, at a minimum, calls to numbers starting 01, 02 and 03. If that is the case, calling the train company on the 03 number would have incurred zero incremental charge, just used up some of the inclusive allowance.

What is the total number of minutes for all of the 084 calls added together and what was the exact amount charged? Which landline or mobile provider sent the bill?

[Deleted User]

Googling "Just call us on 0844 871 4036" throws up multiple sites still listing this number with no indication of cost at all on the Hull Council site and the "Calls are charged at the national rate." message on Durham Councils site. A bit naughty.

http://www.durham.gov.uk/article/1984/Railcards
http://www.hull.gov.uk/resident/parking-and-transport/national-senior-citizens-railcard

Strangely the 26-30 website has a 0345 number and the correct rate stated.

https://www.26-30railcard.co.uk/contact-us/

Ian011

If the train company places a free-to-caller pre-call announcement on the old 0844 number tellling all callers to that number to hang up and re-dial the new 03 number, any and all mentions of the old 0844 number on third-party websites or on old paperwork immediately become irrelevant.

The railcard website was updated to correct the telephone number, etc, shortly after the media ran this story:
https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/millennial-railcard-phone-charges-national-rail-rip-off-cheap-train-travel-a8260106.html

As for third-party websites, it is impossible for all mentions of old telephone numbers to be updated. There are still numerous websites listing a variety of 01 (ended 1990), 071 and 081 (ended 1995), or 0171 and 0181 (ended 2000) telephone numbers for contacting various businesses in London.