Fraud on debit card - NatWest dragging their heels

The_Boss

Hi all,

About a month ago my fiancee's debit card number was used to pay for two big orders from Domino's pizza in Dublin and Cheltenham within minutes (we live in North London). This flagged up as suspicious in NatWest's system and she received a text alerting her. She called and the transactions were refunded and a new debit card sent out.

Last week she noticed another big Domino's transaction on her debit card and called NatWest to alert them to another transaction that was not hers. This time they said they would need to verify whether it was her or not (despite the transaction being in Milton Keynes) and are now dragging their heels over it. It's been a week and having called again today they're saying she may need to wait another 10 days for it to be refunded as they have asked Domino's to investigate. They said they are legally able to do this.

I thought banks needed to refund monies that were from fraudulant transactions - are NatWest able to withhold for so long?

eskbanker

https://www.fca.org.uk/consumers/unauthorised-payments-account states:

In most cases the bank must refund the payment without undue delay and by the end of the business day following the day on which it became aware of the problem, unless it has reasonable grounds for suspecting that you have acted fraudulently.

Without in any way casting aspersions, I can see why it could be seen as suspicious if a second card (with presumably a different number) was used in exactly the same way as the first, as this would suggest two separate but remarkably similar frauds on the same account, the odds of which must be astronomical.

The_Boss

Thanks, that's good to know, and yes the second card did have a different number so the only thing we can think of is that she's twice used a cash machine where skimming by the same people is taking place. We assume it's not possible to obtain a debit card number from hacking into online banking.

The frustrating thing is when she spoke to them the first time around she asked that they put a block on any transactions other than cash as she only uses the debit card for withdrawals. THe FCA guidelines don't list a reasonable time so hopefully this won't drag on and if it does she can a) easily prove her whereabouts and b) hopefully Domino's can provide more information about the person that used it.

eskbanker

The_Boss wrote: »

when she spoke to them the first time around she asked that they put a block on any transactions other than cash

I'd have thought that most people in these circumstances would be insistent that the card is immediately deactivated full stop, so seeking continued use of the compromised card might in itself ring alarm bells?

The_Boss wrote: »

she can a) easily prove her whereabouts

Assuming that the transactions concerned were online or by phone (i.e. not Chip & PIN verified), her whereabouts (and those of the card) aren't particularly conclusive - it's quite plausible for someone to order pizza for delivery to a different address, such as that of a family member or friend for example.

Not trying to pick holes in your story by the way, just thinking about how it might be seen by the bank....

The_Boss

eskbanker wrote: »

I'd have thought that most people in these circumstances would be insistent that the card is immediately deactivated full stop, so seeking continued use of the compromised card might in itself ring alarm bells?

Assuming that the transactions concerned were online or by phone (i.e. not Chip & PIN verified), her whereabouts (and those of the card) aren't particularly conclusive - it's quite plausible for someone to order pizza for delivery to a different address, such as that of a family member or friend for example.

Not trying to pick holes in your story by the way, just thinking about how it might be seen by the bank....

Yep, I hear ya. And as far as point 1 goes, this was during the call when they said they were sending her a new card she asked for future transactions on the new one to be blocked. Re. point 2 I note the FCA guidelines indicate the bank must prove it was her and that use of a card/online banking by itself is not sufficient proof, so that's good news.

eskbanker

The_Boss wrote: »

And as far as point 1 goes, this was during the call when they said they were sending her a new card she asked for future transactions on the new one to be blocked.

Ah right, I'd misunderstood and interpreted your comment as meaning that the request applied temporarily to the first card rather than permanently to the second - did they agree (confirmed in writing?) to block non-ATM use on an ongoing basis, as I wasn't aware that this was an option, and if they did then this would obviously raise questions about their ability to restrict the card's use in that way?

The_Boss wrote: »

Re. point 2 I note the FCA guidelines indicate the bank must prove it was her and that use of a card/online banking by itself is not sufficient proof, so that's good news.

Indeed, but it would probably still be prudent for her to ensure access to another account with a different banking group, on the off chance that, even if they refund her, they decide they don't want her business going forward....

peterbaker

Interesting, the only common denominators so far are Domino at one end and your fiancee at the other?

This reminds me slightly of 2006 when Shell petrol stations all stopped taking CHIP&PIN which had been introduced at their stations in February 2006 if my memory serves. They reverted to previous systems for months because they had reportedly found that Shell customers all over the country might be inadvertently funding Tamil rebels!

With two card numbers it seems there has to be another common link somewhere.

I take it the bank have confirmed that there is no way that the old compromised number could have been used once the new card was issued?

Is it possible that the ATM your fiancee habitually uses may be compromised and some rogue device fitted to it may have skimmed both cards?

18cc

Whatever the ins and out of it I would definitely open a second current account with a different Banking Group if you haven't got one already

they may well decide to close your current account - very unfair I know but that has happened in the past and it is as well to be prepared....

The_Boss

peterbaker wrote: »

Interesting, the only common denominators so far are Domino at one end and your fiancee at the other?

This reminds me slightly of 2006 when Shell petrol stations all stopped taking CHIP&PIN which had been introduced at their stations in February 2006 if my memory serves. They reverted to previous systems for months because they had reportedly found that Shell customers all over the country might be inadvertently funding Tamil rebels!

With two card numbers it seems there has to be another common link somewhere.

I take it the bank have confirmed that there is no way that the old compromised number could have been used once the new card was issued?

Is it possible that the ATM your fiancee habitually uses may be compromised and some rogue device fitted to it may have skimmed both cards?

Yes, the original card was cancelled when the new one was issued. The skimming of both cards is the only think we can think it is.

Re. getting a new account, that's a bit of a worry given our mortgage is with Natwest too.

18cc

Very easy to open a second account

if you have a smartphone then open either a starling or monzo account by downloading the app i

f you prefer a more traditional account just apply for a Nationwide or Lloyds or Barclays or something like that online

Punmanuk

Just how good and safe are monzo. I have recently opened one..but still worried about using them vs traditional high street bank