PCN @ Brentwood Station full payment made before noticing I had a ticket

Handbags-at-dawn

Just for information:-

Brentwood station is operated by London Underground Ltd, part of TfL, and managed by NCP under a contract which can be found at https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/415578/response/1011604/attach/4/TfL%2091322%20Signed%20Contract%2023122014%20Redacted.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1
NCP's enforcement duties are set out in Schedule 4, para 2.3 (about p87). The main things to note are :-
i) the tickets are Parking Charge Notices (ie for breach of contract) rather than Penalty Notices (for breach of Byelaws);
ii) NCP is not authorised to issue Court proceedings;
iii) NCP are required to offer access to POPLA.

atanks

Thanks for that information I am sure that will be handy for future responses as well as mine!

I was about to reply saying I could not find any issuer so the information above regarding NCP managing the car park that TFL own would make sense!

I have contacted TFL via twitter along with NCP and Brentwood Borough Council the later have been the only company to reply confirming that it is nothing to do with them but have still mentioned that it is happening within their borough so surely duty of care?

So if court proceedings are not authorized if my current appeals come back negative I should go down the POPLA route or send another appeal by letter using the change of signage and notice?

Also, still believe something should be done about this from a TFL point of view...have tried to look for details of how to contact the MD of TFL Steve Murphy but nothing obvious that is direct enough has anyone done this before?

Thorsson

Handbags-at-dawn wrote: »

Just for information:-

Brentwood station is operated by London Underground Ltd, part of TfL

This is incorrect. It's managed by TfL Rail. It is a National Rail Station and has no connection to London Underground.

Thorsson

atanks wrote: »

Thanks for that information I am sure that will be handy for future responses as well as mine!

I was about to reply saying I could not find any issuer so the information above regarding NCP managing the car park that TFL own would make sense!

I have contacted TFL via twitter along with NCP and Brentwood Borough Council the later have been the only company to reply confirming that it is nothing to do with them but have still mentioned that it is happening within there borough so surely duty of care?

So if court proceedings are not authorized if my current appeals come back negative I should go down the POPLA route or send another appeal by letter using the change of signage and notice?

Also, still believe something should be done about this from a TFL point of view...have tried to look for details of how to contact the MD of TFL Steve Murphy but nothing obvious that is direct enough has anyone done this before?

No, Brentwood Council have absolutely nothing to do with this Car Park and don't even collect any rates from it.

The actual company running TfL Rail is MTR Corporation (Crossrail) Ltd. Their Registered office is Providence House Providence Place, Islington, London, N1 0NT, if you're having difficulties contacting them. TfL Rail seems to direct people to the people at TfL who manage MTR.

atanks

Thorsson wrote: »

No, you're right. TfL Rail it should be. Their MD is Steve Murphy. I don't know him, but I hope he'll be equally appalled as I know Jamie would be by the predatory nature of his contractor.

Lots of people pay by phone and I bet they do that after having walked to the station (which can be a long walk - I know the car park), bought a ticket, caught the train, etc. which could easily take the 10 minutes before you even get your phone out. I certainly do it that way when I have to pay by phone. This behaviour is clearly not needed to actually protect revenue.

Presuming the charge is the norm for these cowboys, it could also be compared to the £20 you would get charged for not having a ticket on the railway (penalty fare), to show how unreasonable this is. I'd point out that I was a long term customer, has always paid and the rules had been changed (the 10 minutes) with no mention.

I'd also use the bit about what MPs have said about this scam and I'd end by saying something like, "I know your initial reaction will be to say that this is not something you can deal with, but the fact is that these firms only ever cancel these charges if told to by the firm who contracted them."

I might also be tempted to post something on TfL Rail's Twitter.

Ok thanks for that address will prep a letter including your quoted points from earlier in the thread.. Thanks Again!

Handbags-at-dawn

Thorsson wrote: »

This is incorrect. It's managed by TfL Rail. It is a National Rail Station and has no connection to London Underground.

That's odd. NCP seem to think it's a London Underground car park:
https://www.ncp.co.uk/parking-solutions/london-underground-car-parks/
I wonder what they say on the signage?

Thorsson

Handbags-at-dawn wrote: »

That's odd. NCP seem to think it's a London Underground car park:
https://www.ncp.co.uk/parking-solutions/london-underground-car-parks/
I wonder what they say on the signage?

They seem to have TfL Rail Car Parks down as LUL and London Overground ones as well. Misleading, but probably simply a mistake through ignorance - someone has lazily equated TfL with LUL.

Thorsson

I've been thinking about this. TfL Rail (like LO) is not a normal DfT Franchise, but rather a Concession from TfL. The big difference is that, for these concessions, TfL retain revenue risk, but that's not the only difference. I suspect that the contractual relationship is that TfL are the leaseholder from NR and MTR are merely operating the station. In that case the appeal should possibly be to TfL Rail?

However, TfL Rail is merely a trading name and probably not a company at all. A search of the TfL website provides the following information:
Rail for London (Infrastructure) Limited
A wholly owned subsidiary of Transport Trading Ltd. It will be the Infrastructure Manager for the Elizabeth line central operating section and will grant access to rail operators.

Company No: 09366341
Place of registration: England and Wales
Registered Office: 55 Broadway, London SW1H 0BD

I recognise the address as the HQ of TfL.

The relevant person at TfL may therefore be: Gareth Powell, Managing Director - Surface Transport for TfL. I'd suggest sending him a copy of the complaint for good measure.

Given how protective TfL are of their name, it might worth saying something in the letter like, "I thought of using Twitter, but decided it would be better to give you the chance to do the right thing first", just to let them know that you might make their actions public if they try to fob you off.

Handbags-at-dawn

So much for transparency! Thanks Thorsson - glad you know enough to probe deeper.

Interestingly, the car park management contract between NCP and LUL defines car parks as:
"the areas set aside at LUL or other TfL group stations for customers to park motor vehicles....." (my bold)

and TfL group is defined as:
"TfL and all of its subsidiaries..... "

This suggests the contract includes non-LUL car parks. Though it's odd how this can happen when LUL's sister companies are strangers to the contract. Perhaps there are separate side contracts between LUL and its siblings?

atanks

So received a letter this weekend which has confused me more than anything and has made me question that if I did not appeal whether they would actually have any chance of gathering my details based on the statements on the below letter and the fact they cannot approach DVLA or take anyone to court of the back of these fines.....

"Unfortunately we are unable to progress your appeal further at present, as your are a third party making the appeal on behalf of the driver.

Like many other business sectors, due to conditions imposed by the Data Protection Act we are prevented from disclosing or discussing information or issues with a third party such as yourself concerning an individual driver relating to the issue of a Parking Charge Notice

We can however progress an appeal once we are in receipt of signed and dated written consent from the driver of the vehicle at the time of the issue of the Parking Charge Notice giving you full authority to act on their behalf and to receive any relevant information or data relating to them.

You will appreciate the disclosure, discussion or exchange of information or data relating to an individual is a very sensitive issue these days and as such should not be divulged or discussed unless express consent by that individual is given. We look forward to receiving such consent by return enabling us to progress this particular appeal for review and action.

If you are unable to divulge the above information, payment of £60.00 for the above notice can be made by of the below options......

If payment or written consent is not recieved within 14 days from the date of this letter, the discount offer will expire and the full amount of £100.oo will become due. I have to inform you that if the outstanding amount remains unpaid we will follow a recovery process which includes passing the case over to a debt collector who will seek to recover the outstanding debt on our behalf and any reasonable administration costs incurred by the debt collector. We further reserve the right to use the courts to recover any outstanding parking charges due to us"

Letter is dated 20th July so response needed by 3rd August, I feel I may have another one of these come through the post this week for the second appeal....