Kerbs without pavement

amanita

So we have a team rebuilding and widening our driveway, and I'd like them to drop the kerb covering half of it. Understandably, they are reticent, given that common wisdom is that you have to apply to the council.


Unusually though, I'm pretty certain that this doesn't apply, given that the law and rules mean you have to get access granted across a pavement, and the pavement strengthened. Here, however, there is no pavement- the kerb is actually within our property boundaries.


Does anyone have experience with this? To be absolutely clear, there is no footway between road and our drive.

Aylesbury_Duck

It doesn't matter if there's no pavement. Are you sure your boundary lies the other side of the kerb? If the council own the road and the kerb you will still need to apply for it to be dropped. If the kerb is definitely on your land I think you can do what you like with it.

EachPenny

amanita wrote: »

Unusually though, I'm pretty certain that this doesn't apply, given that the law and rules mean you have to get access granted across a pavement, and the pavement strengthened. Here, however, there is no pavement- the kerb is actually within our property boundaries.

Does anyone have experience with this? To be absolutely clear, there is no footway between road and our drive.

The relevant legislation (Highways Act 1980, Section 184) applies to a "kerbed footway or a verge in the highway". So the requirement is not limited to pavements, it also includes verges (with or without a kerb).

How do you know the kerb is within your property boundary? Do you have a map showing your boundaries accurate to +/- 150mm? Did you install the kerb yourself? If not, then the kerb will be regarded as part of the public highway whether or not you believe it is on your land.

Under Section 131 of the same Act it is an offence "without lawful authority or excuse" to excavate in the carriageway of a highway. Therefore unless you can prove that part of the road is also on your land (and is also not legally a 'highway') then it would be an offence for your contractor to dig the hole required to relay the kerbs at a lower level.

From the contractor's point of view it would also be a silly thing to do. Working that close to the road, even if it is within your land, poses a risk to themselves and road users. Hopefully they have public liability insurance, but if it turns out they were working unlawfully on the public highway that might be invalidated. As the client you may find yourself liable for damages resulting from your contractor's unlawful work, and potentially facing prosecution.

The question is, how sure are you that the kerbs are on your land and that the contractor won't need to dig in the highway to drop them?

Aylesbury_Duck wrote: »

If the kerb is definitely on your land I think you can do what you like with it.

The OP might own the land, but it could still be public highway. The OP can only interfere with the kerbs if they are on their land, and it is not public highway.

Furts

There could be a dedicated service strip behind the road kerbs, up to 2m across. When it comes to a property entrance/driveway these kerbs set back to the back line of the service strip. You have no footpaths with this set up, and people think their gardens are 2 metres longer than what they really are.


If OP has this detail - common in the 1980-90s- then you cannot touch the kerb at the end of your drive.


The fact that OP has posted on this makes me wonder if they have done due diligence, considered Planning, considered drainage, consulted Deeds - all should have been sorted at the design stage before "the team" were at the home.

andygb

Furts wrote: »

There could be a dedicated service strip behind the road kerbs, up to 2m across. When it comes to a property entrance/driveway these kerbs set back to the back line of the service strip. You have no footpaths with this set up, and people think their gardens are 2 metres longer than what they really are.


If OP has this detail - common in the 1980-90s- then you cannot touch the kerb at the end of your drive.


The fact that OP has posted on this makes me wonder if they have done due diligence, considered Planning, considered drainage, consulted Deeds - all should have been sorted at the design stage before "the team" were at the home.

Quite right, a couple in my road have just had a dropped kerb done, and they had to pay the council and the relevant utilities to do the work - and it wasn't cheap.
Falling foul of this and simply pleading ignorance would possibly mean a fine and paying to have the work reversed.

amanita

Thanks very much for all the thoughtful comments.

It's a 1950s house, built next to old Georgian houses that immediately exit onto the road, and all searching and land registry show up no "service strip", though again that's a helpful thought. There is no verge of any kind either; stoptap and everything else are directly in the road. I'm certain that there is a gap in the law about this; we could drive over the raised kerb with no legal issues (but maybe mechanical).

Turns out though, that the company doing the drive are actually the 'kerb droppers' in a different authority, so they really should know what they're talking about I guess!



I've decided I'll just get them to do the work level with the road, and I'll get the council to do the kerb later. Half the kerb is dropped already, so access isn't an issue.



Thanks again everyone.

EachPenny

amanita wrote: »

I'm certain that there is a gap in the law about this; we could drive over the raised kerb with no legal issues (but maybe mechanical).

Yes, you can drive over a raised kerb if you wish (but not recommended) although the Highway Authority can serve notice on you under Section 184 requiring you to have the kerb dropped or requiring you to stop driving over it. If you fail to comply with the notice you would be committing an offence.

But you have no right to carry out work on the highway, including altering the height of kerbs.

amanita wrote: »

Turns out though, that the company doing the drive are actually the 'kerb droppers' in a different authority, so they really should know what they're talking about I guess!

Not necessarily. They will probably be given a plan, or list of addresses, and told to go and construct a crossover between the marks someone from the council has painted on the road/footway.

They should know about the law on working in the highway though, so it would be sensible to believe their warnings.

amanita

EachPenny wrote: »

Yes, you can drive over a raised kerb if you wish (but not recommended) although the Highway Authority can serve notice on you under Section 184 requiring you to have the kerb dropped or requiring you to stop driving over it. If you fail to comply with the notice you would be committing an offence.


...

There is no verge or footway. So no, they can't.

PasturesNew

A google streetview photo screenie would be useful.... to show what you mean, so others can see it as it'll be alien to most people precisely how yours is/looks.

It doesn't need the house... just crop to the road/entrance/area.

Kerbstones aren't the diddy little things you see above ground, they're like icebergs - monsters underground. I watched a crew on a new build laying down the kerbs around the parking area, I was gobsmacked at the size... bigguns. It might be nigh on impossible to get them fitted without digging into 6-12" of road for clearance.

amanita

I think that's the conclusion- it'll damage the road so not OK.

EachPenny

amanita wrote: »

There is no verge or footway. So no, they can't.

For the purposes of Section 184 the width of the kerb (usually around 100mm on the top surface) would legally count as either a verge or a footway. So yes, they certainly can.

Furthermore, the kerb stone is also usually bedded on concrete with an additional 100mm width of concrete battered up the rear face below the surface. Therefore the council will claim as highway a strip at least 200mm wide measured from the front (road side) face of the kerb. In law this strip will be classed as footway (if surfaced) or verge (if unsurfaced).

So unless you can prove without question (i.e. a plan showing your boundary accurate to +/-100mm or less) that the kerb is on your land and the land is not in use as a public highway, then you do not have grounds to object to the S184 notice if one were issued.