Retirement Flat - Energy advice

Pensioner1

Thank you again everyone for such detailed replies.
No gas possible to any of flats in block.
Water charges not an issue as included in service charge/lease.
Flat for over 60s not sheltered housing.

Looking at Mira Alero electric shower.
As we do a lot of sport ( yes even the over 60s!) we want to avoid an overheated flat, and in the past have never had heating on in bedroom and slept with window partially open. We will be away a lot and out of flat a great deal during the day.
However as having just purchased this flat and having to do a complete refurb , we want to try and future proof the utilities.
We have yet to check the mains water pressure coming into flat to ensure it will support the above electric shower and Quooker tap ( needs min 2 bar)

zeupater

Anthorn wrote: »

I have personal experience of sheltered retirement flats in two locations in Northamptonshire and Cambridgeshire. Both of them were all electric because there was no gas coming into the property. Could that be the reason why gas is not feasible?

My new home although a retirement flat, is not sheltered and has both gas and electric. My current energy installations were the result of a home energy survey which I paid for and a water survey by the water company which was free. What I have briefly is a gas combi boiler which provides heating to radiators in every room and hot water taps on demand and an electric shower. Walls and loft in the block were already insulated and solar panels on the roof provide lighting for communal areas which offsets against the annual charges.

For me the home energy survey was useful because I had expert advice on what to install with qualified contractors to do the work and the free water survey by my local water company was even better. The water survey also recommended an electric shower and sort of underlined the findings of the home energy survey,

I especially recommend the free water survey if your local water company provides one. They came back to my home after the electric shower was fitted and for free fitted a new shower head which increased the pressure without increasing the supply of water to the shower and also fitted for free a bucket thingy (no brand name on it) in the cistern which cut down on the amount of water in the cistern. They say they will also do an annual water survey also for free.

Also check with your local council on the possibility of grants which support making your home more energy efficient.

Anyway that's my personal experience which I hope you find useful.

Hi

I don't really follow that post re the water advice ...

If you have a combi-boiler then you have hot water on demand for both the taps & the shower. This will provide DHW for the shower at gas unit costs, the advice to fit an electric shower may save the equivalent of the standing cold water in the hot pipe run between the boiler and the shower head, so a relatively small saving, at the expense of paying around 3 or 4 times more for the energy to heat that water ... a cubic meter of water may cost (say) £3, but heating that volume of water to shower temperatures would require between 30 & 40kWh of energy, so (say) £1.60 with gas & £6.40 with electricity .... effectively, if you could use 10% less water with the electric shower, for every 30p you save on your water bill, you're spending around £4.80 more on energy. Where your shower hot water was costing around £5/cubic meter, it's now costing close to £10, so the expert advice given has resulted in your showers costing you double what they were before !! ..... great advice, don't you just love experts!? ....

The water survey may have been good for reduction of water usage when looked at in isolation, it may also show a reduction in energy required to heat the water (both depending on the length of the DHW pipe run from boiler to shower) but it seems that they completely failed to consider the relative cost of energy & the impact on consumer bills ... :doh:

Think about the above & consider whether you would still 'recommend the free water survey' ....

HTH
Z

CashStrapped

Indeed @zeupater That is the point I was trying to make, but I felt it was not worth trying to probe any further. The energy assessment (if not for EPC purposes) seems to be a bit of a fleece to me.

Anthorn

zeupater wrote: »

Hi

I don't really follow that post re the water advice ...

If you have a combi-boiler then you have hot water on demand for both the taps & the shower. This will provide DHW for the shower at gas unit costs, the advice to fit an electric shower may save the equivalent of the standing cold water in the hot pipe run between the boiler and the shower head, so a relatively small saving, at the expense of paying around 3 or 4 times more for the energy to heat that water ... a cubic meter of water may cost (say) £3, but heating that volume of water to shower temperatures would require between 30 & 40kWh of energy, so (say) £1.60 with gas & £6.40 with electricity .... effectively, if you could use 10% less water with the electric shower, for every 30p you save on your water bill, you're spending around £4.80 more on energy. Where your shower hot water was costing around £5/cubic meter, it's now costing close to £10, so the expert advice given has resulted in your showers costing you double what they were before !! ..... great advice, don't you just love experts!? ....

The water survey may have been good for reduction of water usage when looked at in isolation, it may also show a reduction in energy required to heat the water (both depending on the length of the DHW pipe run from boiler to shower) but it seems that they completely failed to consider the relative cost of energy & the impact on consumer bills ... :doh:

Think about the above & consider whether you would still 'recommend the free water survey' ....

HTH
Z

You are not considering that the electric shower is using less water and therefore less energy to heat it than getting hot water from the combi boiler. Also you are not considering the safety of constant temperature water from the electric shower in preference to possibly fluctuating temperature water from the combi boiler. Remember this is a retirement flat intended to be occupied by older people and that's a major consideration.

Alternatively we could trust your opinion as someone who has not surveyed the property while distrusting experienced and professional tradesmen who have surveyed the property. I prefer to trust the professionals. Oh yes I still recommend the water survey because that reduced the cost of water.

CashStrapped

Sorry, but that is incorrect @Anthorn.

Showers fed from combi boilers are normally installed with thermostatic shower controls. These ensure a constant temperature is maintained and that no scalding water can make it out of the shower head. They automatically mix hot and cold to maintain a set temperature. Most actually stop you from setting the water too hot and you have to press a button to override it if desired.

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A combi will use no more water than an electric shower. It might have better flow than an electric shower, but all you have to do is fit a water saving shower head to restrict said flow. That is all they did with your shower electric shower.

The electric shower will cost more (pence per kwh) to heat the water used for the shower. You can do the maths on that.

Anthorn

CashStrapped wrote: »

Sorry, but that is incorrect @Anthorn.

Showers fed from combi boilers are normally installed with thermostatic shower controls. These ensure a constant temperature is maintained and that no scalding water can make it out of the shower head. They automatically mix hot and cold to maintain a set temperature. Some actually stop you from setting the water too hot and you have to press a button to override it if desired.

---

A combi will use no more water than an electric shower. It might have better flow than an electric shower, but all you have to do is fit a water saving shower head to restrict said flow. That is all they did with your shower electric shower.

The electric shower will cost a lot more (pence per kwh) to heat the water used for the shower. You can do the maths on that, it is very simple.

You could be right but I suspect not: When I turn on the hot water tap the water is cold. It then gradually heats until if I'm still running the hot tap I have to turn on the cold tap. Then if I turn off the hot tap and then turn it back on again when the hot water in the pipes is used the water then requires the boiler. That's a roundabout way of illustrating that hot water from the combi boiler is not at a constant temperature and anyone who knows about combi boilers will know that it heats water on demand when a tap or indeed shower turns on. However the heat of water coming from my electric shower heats the water instantly and the water temperature is constant. That is important for older people in a retirement flat.

My last in this. Can't teach someone who thinks they already know everything!

CashStrapped

Firstly, at what point did I declare I know everything? Saying this is your last word on the subject and then throwing that comment out is not exactly a positive way to try and end a discussion.

You are basically trying to say that I am wrong but can't accept it. All I have done is given an alternative opinion. Whether you consider it or not it is up to you.

People who regularly read my posts in the is forum, (I hope would agree) should see that I am always fair and look at all the options. If I am wrong and shown evidence to that effect, I am more than happy to accept this.
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All I am doing is pointing out a number of issues with the advice you have given.

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Regarding your taps situation, after reading what you have written a few times.

The reason why the water from the hot tap is initially cold is that a combi has to get rid of the water that has been sat in the pipe getting cold. After this what water will heat to the temperature set on the boiler.

You could argue that this is a waste of water, and I would agree, especially for hand washing. But for a shower, which lasts longer, it is less of an issue. Depending on the temperature of the incoming mains cold I often have to fiddle with the set temperature of an electric shower. The flow rates from an electric shower are also more affected by the incoming cold water temperature.

Most combis have a setting for radiator temperature and tap water temperature. You can ensure the water does not get scalding from this setting alone.

Regarding any inconsistency in temperature, that is why the installation of a thermostatic mixer tap is recommended with a shower on a combi. This will ensure a consistent temperature, and prevent any scalding.

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There are lots of variables, but in most instances, using a modern condensing combi will be cheaper than an electric shower. This is based on the price of gas vs electric and the efficiency of a modern combi boiler that is set-up correctly.

zeupater

Anthorn wrote: »

You are not considering that the electric shower is using less water and therefore less energy to heat it than getting hot water from the combi boiler. Also you are not considering the safety of constant temperature water from the electric shower in preference to possibly fluctuating temperature water from the combi boiler. Remember this is a retirement flat intended to be occupied by older people and that's a major consideration.

Alternatively we could trust your opinion as someone who has not surveyed the property while distrusting experienced and professional tradesmen who have surveyed the property. I prefer to trust the professionals. Oh yes I still recommend the water survey because that reduced the cost of water.

Hi

From what you described, it's the flow restriction shower head that saves the water and this was a free refit after the electric shower was installed ... as 'CashStrapped' mentioned, this can be achieved just as easily on a shower fed by the combi-boiler ....

Regarding 'using less water and therefore less energy to heat it than getting hot water from the combi boiler' ... I did, I allowed for a 10% reduction in water usage to account for the cold water run-off before the shower reaching temperature and therefore also a 10% reduction in energy wastage in unneeded hot water sitting in the pipework when the shower valve is closed .... I don't know what the pipe run in your own situation is, however, 10% wastage would allow for a considerable pipe run!

On 'safety of constant temperature water from the electric shower' ... thermostatic shower valves are available, ours are thermostatic and the whole house DHW supply is moderated by a thermostatic mixer valve which blends hot &cold water to protect from scalding at the taps as we tend to store DHW at high temperatures ...

I take your point that I've not surveyed the property and the 'professionals' have, however, these 'professionals' may have vested interests or are considering water usage with no regard to cost of energy (which I don't & haven't), but whichever is the case you will still be spending more on the energy to heat your showers than was necessary .. in the example I provided (which isn't likely to be too far out) for every 1p you are saving on water consumption, you're spending around 16p extra on energy, so the calculations would need to be hugely wrong before the logic doesn't apply ... they may be inaccurate according to your particular property by up to a handful of percent, but not 16x !! ...

HTH
Z

boliston

i used to have an electric shower and i now have combi powered shower and the flow rate is much better with the combi - there is a delay of about a minute to get water hot enough to shower under but there is no way i would want to go back to an electric shower!

J_B

Pensioner1 wrote: »

the flat will be unoccupied and empty for frequent weeks of the year . Possibly up to 4 months out of 12 but split over the year. It will be checked whilst we are away.

The thing with 'Storage heaters' is that they store up heat overnight to heat the flat the next day.
If you are going to be there irregularly, then that may not be the most economical way of heating.
BUT - if you plan to be there in 'blocks' of time, that perhaps won't be an issue .... especially if your person to check the flat could pop in the day before you arrive to switch the storage heaters on.