Retirement Flat - Energy advice

CashStrapped

Yes, I agree with that JB.

It is the only caveat I put with storage heaters.

In fact if you see the second line of my first post (post 2) I say with regard to storage heaters:

"Unless your lifestyle means you use the property infrequently [I meant during the day] this is the cheapest way to heat it."

Anthorn

boliston wrote: »

i used to have an electric shower and i now have combi powered shower and the flow rate is much better with the combi - there is a delay of about a minute to get water hot enough to shower under but there is no way i would want to go back to an electric shower!

I'm the opposite to that. I love my electric shower and I also love my energy consumption being lower than the level of the (Ofgem)low user. That's different to you. Well, of course it is: I'm not you and I don't live in your property and probably I don't live in the same area as you.

The underlying message in my first post in this thread is to consult the experts, get a personal home survey and then if you trust what they say go ahead. We may of course do what the self-appointed experts in this forum say and that's our own decision. But we must recognise that the self-appointed experts don't know you, they don't know your property and most likely they don't even know where you live.

Look for example at the self-appointed expert's view of the water survey I had done (read back). That was performed by Anglian Water for crying out loud. But of course rather incredibly the self-appointed experts who don't know me or my property disagreed with that survey.

To sum up call in the professionals. Your energy supplier and your water company might offer surveys or you can go to an independent company. If going independent first try your local council: They most likely won't be recommending tradesmen but they might have lists of local tradesmen who are members of their respective trade organisations. Make sure however that you get a guarantee for the work recommended and done. I went a stage further than that and also got a boiler maintenance contract. They will come back every year and service my boiler and check for safety.

Lastly qualified tradesmen have an interest in serving you and therefore are likely to provide good service. If they don't they will likely lose their reputation and could appear on Cowboy Builders. Self-appointed experts on a forum don't have those constraints and if what they recommend doesn't work they have no comebacks!

zeupater

Anthorn wrote: »

I'm the opposite to that. I love my electric shower and I also love my energy consumption being lower than the level of the (Ofgem)low user. That's different to you. Well, of course it is: I'm not you and I don't live in your property and probably I don't live in the same area as you.

The underlying message in my first post in this thread is to consult the experts, get a personal home survey and then if you trust what they say go ahead. We may of course do what the self-appointed experts in this forum say and that's our own decision. But we must recognise that the self-appointed experts don't know you, they don't know your property and most likely they don't even know where you live.

Look for example at the self-appointed expert's view of the water survey I had done (read back). That was performed by Anglian Water for crying out loud. But of course rather incredibly the self-appointed experts who don't know me or my property disagreed with that survey.

To sum up call in the professionals. Your energy supplier and your water company might offer surveys or you can go to an independent company. If going independent first try your local council: They most likely won't be recommending tradesmen but they might have lists of local tradesmen who are members of their respective trade organisations. Make sure however that you get a guarantee for the work recommended and done. I went a stage further than that and also got a boiler maintenance contract. They will come back every year and service my boiler and check for safety.

Lastly qualified tradesmen have an interest in serving you and therefore are likely to provide good service. If they don't they will likely lose their reputation and could appear on Cowboy Builders. Self-appointed experts on a forum don't have those constraints and if what they recommend doesn't work they have no comebacks!

Hi

I must say that's a little strong ... If you want to spend your money to have an electric shower fitted to save a little money on water use and are content to spend somewhere around 16x that saving on a more expensive energy source to heat the water then it's up to you ... you're now aware that it's costing more, you may not have been before - above that all you need to do is sit back & think through the logic then grab a piece of paper & a calculator! ... I stand by the logic & the conclusion ...

Regarding Anglian Water or any other water supplier ... Of course, if you contact a water supplier and ask their advice on saving water they may say fit an electric shower, because (for reasons given) it may use less water, however, if the question is related to saving money in a situation where DHW is already provided by a gas combi-boiler the answer should (if they're honest) be completely different ... it depends on the question!

As for 'experts' providing EPCs ... I think that a little research into the professional expertise requirements for EPC assessors actually is and how RdSAP is used as a simplified assessment tool .... we had an EPC done a few years ago & the assessor made fundamental errors which shouldn't have been made, missed points which had been noted down, measured loft insulation incorrectly, couldn't account for 'non-standard' (no tick box) insulation & refused to check for anything which couldn't immediately be seen (eg underfloor insulation) ....

Resulting from our EPC assessment being incorrect our property shows as being at the top end of the B bracket with estimated typical energy usage & costs which are well over double what we pay (backed by decades of detailed monthly records!) and recommends that we spend a typical £4k-£6k on floor insulation to save £111/year, even though the assessor was aware that we have floor insulation already!! ... we also have almost double the depth of loft insulation that the RdSAP model accepts within it's best tick-box ....

On the environmental impact front, the assessor needed to follow how the model is used, therefore it 'assumes' that our GCH acts as our primary heat-source and our log-burner is therefore secondary. although it provided the majority of our annual heating at the time .... so onto the occupancy assessment, effectively it told us that we used far less energy than average household of our size (£500 vs £1200), even though we do use far less than even that ... If we followed their recommendations our annual savings would be almost -£100 (yes cost more!) and if we applied for 'Green Deal' finance etc we'd still be worse off by around £50/year .... oddly, even though we already used biomass in a log-burner to provide the majority of our heating, the report went on to suggest that we used Green Deal finance to install a wood logs boiler in order to access RHI payments of around £2k/year for 7 years! .. you just couldn't make it up, the experts were effectively attempting to support the selling of something that wasn't warranted, needed or even appropriate as either an energy efficiency or money-saving measure, and which would make no difference on environmental grounds .... yet, the 'expert' and the system being used did this .... you just wonder how & why!? ... but note that the government, EST etc seem to hint that commission may come into play when assessors are involved, eg ...

.... ensuring that assessors outline any commission they receive or ties they have to Green Deal Providers

'EST Green Deal & ECO FAQ'

Anyway, enough rambling about my experience, all I've tried to do is ensure that everyone is aware that when dealing with an organisation which is product or sales oriented, the answer you get will depend on the question you ask, assessors & 'experts' may not have a background or level of experience which is quite what people would naturally expect, and that logic should always be applied as a tool to question what others would like us to believe ...

HTH
Z

Anthorn

zeupater wrote: »

Anyway, enough rambling about my experience, all I've tried to do is ensure that everyone is aware that when dealing with an organisation which is product or sales oriented, the answer you get will depend on the question you ask, assessors & 'experts' may not have a background or level of experience which is quite what people would naturally expect, and that logic should always be applied as a tool to question what others would like us to believe ...
Z

This is laughable: You are posting in a thread about a retirement flat and you clearly do not have any knowledge at all of the special needs of older people particularly with regard to hot water. Either that or you ignore those special needs. Your advice is to ignore the advice of those who have experience and training in providing that advice and instead accept the advice of a self-appointed forum expert whose background is dubious. Well, you know, most people have the freedom of choice.

My advice still stands: Consult the professionals!

zeupater

Anthorn wrote: »

This is laughable: You are posting in a thread about a retirement flat and you clearly do not have any knowledge at all of the special needs of older people particularly with regard to hot water. Either that or you ignore those special needs. Your advice is to ignore the advice of those who have experience and training in providing that advice and instead accept the advice of a self-appointed forum expert whose background is dubious. Well, you know, most people have the freedom of choice.

My advice still stands: Consult the professionals!

Hi

Logic doesn't care where you live ... water is water, energy is energy, money is money ...

Science bit ...
Water - Has a mass of 1kg/litre ... that's 1 tonne/cubic meter
Energy - It takes 1.16kWh to raise 1 tonne of water 1°C.

Temperature (say) ...
Water mains - 10°C
Shower - 45°C

Cost (say) ...
Water - Approx £3/cubic meter
Electricity - Approx 17p/kWh
Gas - Approx 4p/kWh

So ...
Raising 1 tonne of water from mains temperature to shower temperature consumes 40.6kWh((45-10)*1.16) of energy ...
Heating with gas (90% efficient) - (40.6x4)/.9 = £1.80
Heating with electricity (100% efficient) - 40.6x17 = £6.90

Therefore relative costs ...
1 tonne of cold water = £3
1tonne of 45°C water heated with gas = £4.80
1tonne of 45°C water heated with electricity = £9.90


So ...
10% saving of water (100Litres) = 30p (£3x0.1)
Cost addition (basis 900Litres) = £4.59((9.90-4.80)*0.9)

To save 30p on water is costing you £4.59 ... if the water company supplied the water you use for showers for free if heated by electricity, your showers would still be costing you more than if they charged for the water and you were heating it by gas! ....

Feel free to challenge the figures used using whatever you pay for water, gas & electricity ... substitute your own boiler efficiency, ground water temperature & whatever temperature you shower at, but the logic is substantially sound, as is the conclusion ... you've paid for an electric shower to be installed on the basis of saving water (whether on cost or environmental grounds) and because of that the cost of having a shower has increased, as has the overall environmental impact (on current UK electricity generation source mix) ...

All I ask is that you run the figures!

HTH
Z

boliston

zeupater wrote: »

.....
Cost (say) ...
Water - Approx £3/cubic meter
Electricity - Approx 17p/kWh.....

Who charges 17p per unit for electricity? - I would have thought between 9p and 11p per unit would be more normal, depending on the zone you are in (midlands cheapest, highlands most expensive)

WillowCat

boliston wrote: »

Who charges 17p per unit for electricity? - I would have thought between 9p and 11p per unit would be more normal, depending on the zone you are in (midlands cheapest, highlands most expensive)

Need to know what suppliers are that low! I'm in the south west, currently paying just over 17p per unit (but the standing charge is only 14p per day).

Have been thinking of switching to another supplier at 14.5p per unit, with 26p per day standing charge. On a low usage that's not a lot of difference.

CashStrapped

What is your annual use in kwh?

Bosh that into a comparison site, and the cheapest tariff for your use will present itself regardless of how it is structured.

As long as your kwh figures are accurate and within an expected range of your annual use, a compassion site will do all the comparing for you.

While it is useful to know how a tariff is structured, it can often be a red herring to get too caught up with it.

Anthorn

zeupater wrote: »

Hi

Logic doesn't care where you live ... water is water, energy is energy, money is money ...

Science bit ...
Water - Has a mass of 1kg/litre ... that's 1 tonne/cubic meter
Energy - It takes 1.16kWh to raise 1 tonne of water 1°C.

Temperature (say) ...
Water mains - 10°C
Shower - 45°C

Cost (say) ...
Water - Approx £3/cubic meter
Electricity - Approx 17p/kWh
Gas - Approx 4p/kWh

So ...
Raising 1 tonne of water from mains temperature to shower temperature consumes 40.6kWh((45-10)*1.16) of energy ...
Heating with gas (90% efficient) - (40.6x4)/.9 = £1.80
Heating with electricity (100% efficient) - 40.6x17 = £6.90

Therefore relative costs ...
1 tonne of cold water = £3
1tonne of 45°C water heated with gas = £4.80
1tonne of 45°C water heated with electricity = £9.90


So ...
10% saving of water (100Litres) = 30p (£3x0.1)
Cost addition (basis 900Litres) = £4.59((9.90-4.80)*0.9)

To save 30p on water is costing you £4.59 ... if the water company supplied the water you use for showers for free if heated by electricity, your showers would still be costing you more than if they charged for the water and you were heating it by gas! ....

Feel free to challenge the figures used using whatever you pay for water, gas & electricity ... substitute your own boiler efficiency, ground water temperature & whatever temperature you shower at, but the logic is substantially sound, as is the conclusion ... you've paid for an electric shower to be installed on the basis of saving water (whether on cost or environmental grounds) and because of that the cost of having a shower has increased, as has the overall environmental impact (on current UK electricity generation source mix) ...

All I ask is that you run the figures!

HTH
Z

Still laughable and even more so this time.

It's not about statistics and figures. It's about the special needs of older people as I've said previously.

Older people as they get older sometimes lose the feeling in their extremities namely fingers and toes, and that can extend further perhaps to their feet and hands or even further to their forearms and lower leg. Now what does that tell you about just one the special needs of older people and their ability to test the temperature of water? It's one thing to burn one's hands in a kitchen sink but quite another to burn one's whole body in a shower. In the latter case the older person is likely to suffer shock and die!

Getting to the real world, that of my hot water system and my electric shower, it's very easy for me to adjust the temperature of my Vaillant combi boiler. But the temperature of my shower is limited and in order to change that I have to open it up. Basically the temperature of my shower doesn't increase beyond the temperature of the No. 6 setting.

Now I would say stop with your unqualified and uninformed advice before you kill someone!

Lastly, anyone who buys a retirement flat is looking towards it being their home for the rest of their life. So the fixtures and fittings have to be mindful of the fact that they could suffer with their health and mobility as they get older unless they are able to replace those fixtures and fittings at regular intervals.

Anthorn

WillowCat wrote: »

Need to know what suppliers are that low! I'm in the south west, currently paying just over 17p per unit (but the standing charge is only 14p per day).

Have been thinking of switching to another supplier at 14.5p per unit, with 26p per day standing charge. On a low usage that's not a lot of difference.

This is a topic related to retirement so I am replying on that basis, i.e. related to older people.

Depends if you need Warm Home Discount or not: If not try an online quote at Outfox The Market. If you need WHD try an online quote with Scottish Power.

My current Scottish Power Super Saver December 2018 Eastern region tariff for electricity is 13.054p/kWh and a standing change of 19.18p/day. That tariff is not available now but their currently available tariffs are comparable in overall cost. According to MSE Cheap Energy Club Outfox The Market would be £89/year cheaper than SP and I will probably switch to that in late November 2018 unless the situation changes.

So overall the above suggestions are well within your parameters depending on your region. There are other suppliers too of course.