Yet another PCN in a private car park space.

Ralph-y

I am a little surprised that no one has pointed you towards this

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2018-02-02/debates/CC84AF5E-AC6E-4E14-81B1-066E6A892807/Parking(CodeOfPractice)Bill



it is the debate that our MP's had re this 'cowboy industry' (Hansard)

watch and you will see what they think

' ''Rip-offs from car park Cowboys must stop''; unfair treatment; signage deliberately confusing to ensure a PCN is issued; ''years of abuse by rogue parking companies''; bloodsuckers; ''the current system of regulation is hopeless, like putting Dracula in charge of the blood-bank''; extortionate fines; rogue operators; ''sense of injustice''; unfair charges and notices; wilfully misleading; signage is a deliberate act to deceive or mislead; ''confusing signs are often deliberate, to trap innocent drivers''; unreasonable; a curse; harassing; operating in a disgusting way; appeals service is no guarantee of a fair hearing; loathed; outrageous scam; dodgy practice; outrageous abuse; unscrupulous practices; ''the British Parking Association is as much use as a multi-storey car park in the Gobi desert''; and finally, by way of unanimous conclusion: ''we need to crack down on these rogue companies. They are an absolute disgrace to this country. Ordinary motorists and ordinary residents should not @have to put up with this''. ' (Hansard)

MP's comments ....

so please follow the advice above and at the same time complain to your MP.

good luck

Ralph:cool:

Coupon-mad

You should read the whole of Daniel san's fightback thread:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5015782

It's also about PCM at a Warwick Estates residential site, but his thread started way back in 2014 when another PPC was infesting the location. Still a current thread now, still fighting the Managing agent and multiple (all unfair and downright predatory) PCM fake parking tickets and Gladstones threats of court.

Some great letters on that thread, also read the similar thread by hairray (search members list).

It was fair to say that the parking around the estate was becoming an increasing problem, and the Estates Management company (Warwick Estates) decided to contract the wonderful Parking Control Management (UK) Ltd. about 18 months ago to help sort this out.

Errrm, no they didn't. That's not what PCM do, look:

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2015/05/is-it-pcm-uk-who-make-up-stuff-all-time.html

Your Managing Agent failed in their duty of care to residents, IMHO, for taking on these ex-clampers:

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/12/heath-parade-graham-park-way-scam-site.html

This was their MO when clamping like a bunch of thugs:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=55387

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=44429

Now, after reading that, and Daniel san's and hairray's long MSE threads, and watching last month's unanimous condemnation of the entire industry in the Parliamentary debate linked by Ralphy above, tell us again:

...do you honestly still believe that PCM are there to 'help' the interests of anyone expect themselves?

Are you happy with the due diligence displayed by Warwick Estates in allowing this rogue firm onsite? How are you residents going to group together to kick PCM out, and how soon can you all achieve that?

IMHO (based on ten years of posting on this parking firm and seeing it all, including when they were scum knuckle-dragging clampers, before it was made illegal) PCM are among the very worst, bottom-feeding parking companies your MA could possibly have invited to maraud around your cars.

:eek:

ampersand

Tiny typo: 'expect'> 'except', only because we are both nit-pickers, c-m.

Klaggers - you now see the richesses available :-). Start mining.

Klaggers

Hello all

Again, I thank everyone who has contributed and are trying to help me. It is very kind of all of you.

At this point I am keen to get as much information as I can in regards to my rights as a tenant with access to the bay, and it seems the devil of the detail will be outlined in the lease, and my tenancy agreement does not really help. Can anyone tell me who is the best person to contact to get access to this? And as I do not own this flat (I am a tenant and have an estate agent who liaises with my landlord who lives abroad), do I still have the right to access this document?

I will crack on with researching this topic today!

Fruitcake

I don't see how you can agree to something if you haven't seen it or signed it/signed that you agree to it.
You can't be held to a contract that you have never seen.

I would suggest you have a right to see the contract.

You say your lease doesn't help. What exactly does it say about parking? Being silent on parking/permits is just as valuable as having details about use of parking spaces.

I suggest you visit the estate agent armed with this: -

These are some of the comments made by the MPs in Parliament concerning the unregulated parking industry (Feb 2018):

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2018-02-02/debates/CC84AF5E-AC6E-4E14-81B1-066E6A892807/Parking(CodeOfPractice)Bill

''Rip-offs from car park Cowboys must stop''; unfair treatment; signage deliberately confusing to ensure a PCN is issued; ''years of abuse by rogue parking companies''; bloodsuckers; ''the current system of regulation is hopeless, like putting Dracula in charge of the blood-bank''; extortionate fines; rogue operators; ''sense of injustice''; unfair charges and notices; wilfully misleading; signage is a deliberate act to deceive or mislead; ''confusing signs are often deliberate, to trap innocent drivers''; unreasonable; a curse; harassing; operating in a disgusting way; appeals service is no guarantee of a fair hearing; loathed; outrageous scam; dodgy practice; outrageous abuse; unscrupulous practices; ''the British Parking Association is as much use as a multi-storey car park in the Gobi desert''; and finally, by way of unanimous conclusion: ''we need to crack down on these rogue companies. They are an absolute disgrace to this country. Ordinary motorists and ordinary residents should not have to put up with this''.

These are the exact words used, so you should quote them to your the estate agents, and MP in a complaint and ask him/her to contact Sir Greg Knight MP if he wants further information about this scam.

[Deleted User]

Some thoughts, FWIW:

Johnersh, in regards to your second point, do you meant that as there is clear evidence to suggest that either my wife (the registered keeper) or myself (a named driver) parked the vehicle there, this can be used as a "defence"? I know I touched on it above when replying to Redx, however I am not 100% sure how PoFA 2012 applies directly to me / us with this dispute?

If court proceedings are issued, in this case I'd not try and use Pofa to make clever arguments, provided your wife is on the tenancy. I'd just defend in my name but challenge the contract and whether there was a breach at all. Much simpler, much clearer.

I figured my wife has "accepted liability" when initially appealing

.
The claimant may try and rely on pre-action correspondence, but this is not the same as proof of a breach of contract. Indeed you're likely to rely on the same letters to evidence that permit was displayed.

Also, in reference to your third point, surely the "evidence (the photo's they took)" are the proof they are using to argue the permit was not displayed? But I can simply counter that evidence by showing how it can (and WAS) not shown in the photo.

Yes and yes. Remember you and the wife = two quality statements to their one.

However, they would use the argument that this was not "CLEAR" enough for them?

Possibly but the requirement is usually to display or display in the windscreen not to stick it to the windscreen. As such, they cannot rely on their failure to walk up to the car and look on the dash as a basis for issuing a ticket.

Klaggers

Johnersh wrote: »

Some thoughts, FWIW:


If court proceedings are issued, in this case I'd not try and use Pofa to make clever arguments, provided your wife is on the tenancy. I'd just defend in my name but challenge the contract and whether there was a breach at all. Much simpler, much clearer.

If court proceedings are issued, which I am hoping it will not get that far, I aim to make my defence more or less identical to the case of "Pace Recovery and Storage v Mr N C6GF14F0 16/09/2016 Croydon". I don't intend to go down the path of PoFA. In essence, my tenancy agreement cannot be superceded by a 3rd party contractor simply by slapping signage up in the carpark.

Johnersh wrote: »

The claimant may try and rely on pre-action correspondence, but this is not the same as proof of a breach of contract. Indeed you're likely to rely on the same letters to evidence that permit was displayed.

Pre-action correspondence? I am not sure what you mean to this? Should the claimant attempt to contact me (or my wife) I will simply retain the letters and ignore them. The same goes for any "debt collectors". I will only respond to a LBCC which acknowledges I have received it, and will go on from that point (with perhaps a small amount of help from some kind people on this forum).

Johnersh wrote: »

Yes and yes. Remember you and the wife = two quality statements to their one.

Fingers crossed.

Johnersh wrote: »

Possibly but the requirement is usually to display or display in the windscreen not to stick it to the windscreen. As such, they cannot rely on their failure to walk up to the car and look on the dash as a basis for issuing a ticket.

I suppose the argument they are relying on is "clearly displayed" or some other such nonsense. We put this forward on the initial appeal, and it was rejected as such. The rejection letter even had the temerity to state that it is not disputed whether-or-not I held a valid permit, rather this was not displayed in the windshield of the vehicle at the time.

Fruitcake wrote: »

I don't see how you can agree to something if you haven't seen it or signed it/signed that you agree to it.
You can't be held to a contract that you have never seen.

I would suggest you have a right to see the contract.

I assume you meant the PCM contract in order to operate on this land? Well, if this is the case, the "contract" is the signage they have displayed in the carpark. Which we all know is worth less than dirt. That is how PCM are justifying their actions, no?

Fruitcake wrote: »

You say your lease doesn't help. What exactly does it say about parking? Being silent on parking/permits is just as valuable as having details about use of parking spaces.

Now, I have not GOT the landlords lease which, I would assume, details his rights to the use of this allocated bay. This is the issue which I have mentioned, as I do not know where I can get this information as I requested it from the estate agents who run this property on behalf of my landlord, but they were largely useless and didn't seem to understand what I was requesting. However, what I do have access to is my Tenancy agreement, which does provide me with some details in regards to the use of the allocated bay. It states this:

“The Landlord lets to the Tenant the residential Premises known as (address) and shared use of the common parts as applicable, together with allocated parking bay no. XX as applicable (“the Premises”)”.

As you can see - not one mention of the use of permits, as this was signed and agreed to BEFORE PCM were contracted to operate here. Furthermore, when PCM began enforcing the carpark, we got no warnings; only a letter through the mail which contained the permit and informing the residents that they intend to manage the parking. I never signed to this or opted in for this service. I naively displayed the permit in my car(s) and shrugged assuming I was doing my bit as a resident in this estate. And this is the thanks I get for my troubles.

Fruitcake wrote: »

I suggest you visit the estate agent armed with this: -

These are some of the comments made by the MPs in Parliament concerning the unregulated parking industry (Feb 2018):

''Rip-offs from car park Cowboys must stop''; unfair treatment; signage deliberately confusing to ensure a PCN is issued; ''years of abuse by rogue parking companies''; bloodsuckers; ''the current system of regulation is hopeless, like putting Dracula in charge of the blood-bank''; extortionate fines; rogue operators; ''sense of injustice''; unfair charges and notices; wilfully misleading; signage is a deliberate act to deceive or mislead; ''confusing signs are often deliberate, to trap innocent drivers''; unreasonable; a curse; harassing; operating in a disgusting way; appeals service is no guarantee of a fair hearing; loathed; outrageous scam; dodgy practice; outrageous abuse; unscrupulous practices; ''the British Parking Association is as much use as a multi-storey car park in the Gobi desert''; and finally, by way of unanimous conclusion: ''we need to crack down on these rogue companies. They are an absolute disgrace to this country. Ordinary motorists and ordinary residents should not have to put up with this''.

These are the exact words used, so you should quote them to your the estate agents, and MP in a complaint and ask him/her to contact Sir Greg Knight MP if he wants further information about this scam.

I don't think my estate agents will really care about my plight, they have no responsibility surely? However. Warwick Estates may have something to say when I send them this quote. Thank you for this. Additionally, I am intending to write to both my Local MP as well as Greg Knight (funnily enough, my brother lives in his constituent - and he showed me his hilarious campaign video. It's worth a look!! :rotfl:)

I will keep you all updated of any progress I make, and if anyone wants to throw in more ideas / suggestions please do. I am absorbing all of this information the best I can; however this could not have come at a worse time as I am in the process of purchasing a house in a different location and I am working so much overtime in order to ease my financial commitments. Even more reason these parasites are not getting my money.

Klaggers

Hello all

After a weekend of pointed email to my Estates Management company they have absolutely denied any responsibility, stating it is the responsibility of my estate agent as they have not updated my tenancy agreement after implementing PCM. Is this correct? Also, they are not willing to play too much ball with me as I don't own the lease.

Can anyone provide a bit of advice?

Thanks all

Klaggers

Hello all,

I do apologise if I'm bumping my thread with no real content, however I just want to make sure I have attempted to pursue all possible angles of nipping this in the bud. May it be worth pursuing a local councillor as well as MP? Furthermore, is there a particular time frame these companies can pursue these through the courts? I.e. is there a date I can breathe a sigh of relief of nothing comes through the post for me?

Klaggees

KeithP

They have up to six years to bring a court claim.

Yes of course you can involve your local councillors.