How long will this property website go on saving l the homeowners

triathlon

"Envious and jealous type, why are you with him " are you really that tick

Windofchange

Seems like a reasonable question to ask. I wouldn’t want to be with someone like that. He must make you happy on some level though, or you’d find someone else I suppose?

I think that’s what you mean anyway? Your last response as per usual doesn’t make a great deal of grammatical sense! You seem to have the same ability as Great Ape in that respect. How very confusing....

Cakeguts

Windofchange wrote: »

I hope (and I actually do) that you find something to sort yourself out. I'd probably argue that there is nothing that can give you long term happiness other than yourself, so it doesn't really come as a surprise that someone is suggesting CBT doesn't last for life. It isn't supposed to be a cure, it is supposed to get you to a place where you can progress and figure stuff out yourself. An ex of mine went through it - took her 3 years, but she came to a point where she came off medications, and came out the other side of her depression. I like to think a large part of that was meeting me, having a fulfilling life, seeing a future, starting new hobbies, going out partying again etc etc. She'd had a messy divorce which had put her into a funk. If you spend your life waiting for other people to fix you, you will forever be saying well nothing works, I'm broken, it's the fault of the NHS, it's the fault of CBT, of doctors etc etc. Nobody other than you is responsible for your happiness. Spend less time on here and more time in the real world would be my best advice. Get a hobby, join a running club, whatever.

Anyway, I'd best not pollute the thread and let Great Ape and Great Ape, I mean Great Ape and 'Triathlon' get on with his / their debate about whatever it is. Hilarious.

Will you please stop doing this. You can't "snap out" of depression by doing things. The latest brain scans show that people have something wrong with their brains when they have depression. You can't cure something wrong by doing exercise or "getting out more." I get so angry about this. If you think CBT is going to work with depression it will also work with brain tumours. So please explain how a talking therapy will reduce the size of a brain tumour. I would love to know. I would also like to know how passing an electric current through a brain tumour would help cure it. Has it even been tried? I don't expect so.

As we all know the brain is able to shrink and increase in size. Whatever causes depression also causes certain areas of the brain to become smaller so there is an actual neurological change in some types of depression. If the NHS could be bothered to spend money on saving the lives of people with mental illness they would do some research into how to find a cure for the neurological changes. Instead they are more interested in providing IVF because people who want to have their child at any cost can shout louder than someone who is genuinely ill. What people forget is when someone commits suicide through lack of medical care they are also someone's child.

Windofchange

I almost can't be bothered, but I have a spare 20 minutes so here goes.

Cakeguts wrote: »

Will you please stop doing this.

I'm not entirely sure where I have been perpetually doing 'this', whatever 'this' is? I'm sure you can enlighten me by bringing up a lengthy post history?

Cakeguts wrote: »

You can't "snap out" of depression by doing things. The latest brain scans show that people have something wrong with their brains when they have depression. You can't cure something wrong by doing exercise or "getting out more." I get so angry about this.

If you are referring to my reply to Economic earlier, please point to the part where I have said you can just 'snap out' of depression? As per my reply to him, I thought I had put a pretty well reasoned reply together, and started off by wishing him well. We have then arrived here with your usual hysteria about how everyone is saying this that and other. By putting something like 'the latest brain scans' you may as well just say I have no idea but here are my ill informed gibberings anyway. As per usual, you don't have a clue.

There are numerous clinical studies and national guidance documents that show / recommend exercise for depressed individuals:

Cooney et al (2014) https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/1881295?redirect=true

"Exercise is associated with a greater reduction in depression symptoms compared with no treatment, placebo, or active control interventions, such as relaxation or meditation."

Mead et al (2009) - Cochrane library http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD004366.pub4/full

"We found exercise did seem to improve the symptoms of depression, but we cannot be sure exactly how effective it is, or the most effective type of exercise. The evidence suggests that exercise probably needs to be continued in the longer-term for benefits on mood to be maintained."

NICE 2009, last update 2016 (NICE are the organisation who implement evidence into clinical practice - it's basically gold standard)

https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg90/ifp/chapter/treatments-for-mild-to-moderate-depression

Executive summary - we recommend exercise amongst other interventions for depression.

Cakeguts wrote: »

If you think CBT is going to work with depression it will also work with brain tumours. So please explain how a talking therapy will reduce the size of a brain tumour. I would love to know. I would also like to know how passing an electric current through a brain tumour would help cure it. Has it even been tried? I don't expect so.

I'm at an absolute loss as to your train of thought here. Where have I, or anyone else for that matter, suggested that CBT will help with brain tumours? Therefore, where have you got this madness from?

Cakeguts wrote: »

As we all know the brain is able to shrink and increase in size. Whatever causes depression also causes certain areas of the brain to become smaller so there is an actual neurological change in some types of depression.

Ah, I think I get it. You actually believe that the brain shrinks and grows in size through life depending on whether or not someone is depressed? You therefore think that if CBT can shrink the brain...oh Jesus wept...

I think what you are trying to allude to is the concept of neuroplasticity, and by relation to this, Activity-dependent plasticity. This is in a nutshell the concept that as you have new experiences, the neurones in your brain can change to re-enforce that particular pathway. When you learn to ride a bike as a child, you develop certain motor-control elements, and as you do it more, you re-enforce them until you master it. In relation to depression, if you remain depressed, your neuronal make up changes to re-enforce that. Your brain doesn't grow per se, rather neural pathways become stronger / the chemical makeup of the brain changes.

Before making a statement like "As we all know that the brain is able to shrink and increase in size", it might be an idea to check your factual accuracy? I suppose to be fair to you, the brain can grow in size in adult life, and when it does it is a medical emergency due to the raised inter-cranial pressure, and it involves a surgeon rapidly drilling holes in / cutting the top of your skull off to relieve it. Brain shrinking occurs with age, but again it is a one way ticket - it doesn't shrink and then get bigger again.

Cakeguts wrote: »

If the NHS could be bothered to spend money on saving the lives of people with mental illness they would do some research into how to find a cure for the neurological changes.

If you want some bedtime reading, there was a report published a little while ago called the five year forward view for mental health:

https://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Mental-Health-Taskforce-FYFV-final.pdf

This details the changes that need to occur within the NHS, and infrastructure at large in order to accommodate the needs of the growing mental health issue. A large amount of time and money has been and is being spent on this. We already have medications for the neurological changes as you put it - selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs), serotonin and norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors (SNRIs) and tricyclic antidepressants (TCAs) to name a few. How well do you suppose treating the underlying brain chemistry is going given that more people are reporting mental health issues? You think this is a raging success? What are you suggesting here, brain surgery? As per everything you have written, you just quite simply have no idea what you are talking about.

Cakeguts wrote: »

Instead they are more interested in providing IVF because people who want to have their child at any cost can shout louder than someone who is genuinely ill. What people forget is when someone commits suicide through lack of medical care they are also someone's child.

Except as has been widely reported in the news recently:

NHS fertility services have suffered their biggest cuts since national standards for IVF were introduced in 2004, a report has indicated.

Just 12 per cent of NHS clinical commissioning groups (CCGs) in England offer three full cycles of IVF, in line with national best practice guidance, down from 24 per cent in 2013.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/ivf-nhs-treatment-fertility-lists-wait-patients-lottery-budget-cuts-a8028116.html

So, actually it would appear that the NHS isn't more interested in providing IVF treatment. Quite the opposite in-fact.

You quite simply are grossly mis-informed, and in all honesty if I may be so bold, just plain ignorant. I very much suspect the above will fall on death ears, but if nothing else, it serves as a reminder to me just how ill informed the general public are about their health and the NHS at large. I'm actually meeting up with our mental health team early next week - I'm going to print your reply out for our coffee break to provide a little light entertainment. I'll let you know how much collective sighing went on if you want?

triathlon

Depression is not something I have encountered personally, to be honest I don't think it is a subject that sho

triathlon

Sadly none of us can have HPC closed Down, and there is a small element there who you really cannot feel any empathy for. But how many lives is that site destroying with their in correct Mantra, a lot of them I am willing to bet are just decent people wanting to lead happy lives, but are being held back by this delusion that rich and we'll off people are going to be somehow evicted or pressured out of our homes so they can move in

There are about a dozen full time posters on that site that should feel Ashamed, and why do they never appear in the mainstream media

Windofchange

triathlon wrote: »

Sadly none of us can have HPC closed Down, and there is a small element there who you really cannot feel any empathy for. But how many lives is that site destroying with their in correct Mantra, a lot of them I am willing to bet are just decent people wanting to lead happy lives, but are being held back by this delusion that rich and we'll off people are going to be somehow evicted or pressured out of our homes so they can move in

There are about a dozen full time posters on that site that should feel Ashamed, and why do they never appear in the mainstream media

Why on earth do you want to have HPC shut down? They are at polar opposites to you, but right or wrong, what purpose does it serve to close down a website because you, sorry, Great Ape has a vendetta against it? Christians have been predicting the second coming for 2018 years and it hasn't happened. Do I think we should shut down all religious sites because they are stupid and have been wrong forever and a day?

As has been suggested to you, sorry, Great Ape a little while back, there are just as many outwardly vindictive people on here who post about how magnificent their lives are, and how many millions they have, how the homeless should be rounded up and put in prison etc etc. Do I want this site shut down? No. I'd far rather these people posted so I can laugh at them as opposed to thinking that such idiocy doesn't exist at all!

Jack_Johnson_the_acorn

Windofchange wrote: »

Why on earth do you want to have HPC shut down? They are at polar opposites to you, but right or wrong, what purpose does it serve to close down a website because you, sorry, Great Ape has a vendetta against it? Christians have been predicting the second coming for 2018 years and it hasn't happened. Do I think we should shut down all religious sites because they are stupid and have been wrong forever and a day?

As has been suggested to you, sorry, Great Ape a little while back, there are just as many outwardly vindictive people on here who post about how magnificent their lives are, and how many millions they have, how the homeless should be rounded up and put in prison etc etc. Do I want this site shut down? No. I'd far rather these people posted so I can laugh at them as opposed to thinking that such idiocy doesn't exist at all!

Yeah some of the posters on here clearly have an issue with the people on that website. Some are obsessed. I enjoy winding Crashy up, but that's because he constantly posts absolute nonsense, he's managed to delude himself into thinking he's right.

He has calmed down a little nowadays and has recently accepted that not everyone who bought property is over-leveraged.

But him,joker and a couple of other do deserve a bit of gentle ribbing.

It's a shame that we can't make actual arguments & debate without it ending up in a mud slinging contest.

Cakeguts

Windofchange wrote: »

I almost can't be bothered, but I have a spare 20 minutes so here goes.



I'm not entirely sure where I have been perpetually doing 'this', whatever 'this' is? I'm sure you can enlighten me by bringing up a lengthy post history?



If you are referring to my reply to Economic earlier, please point to the part where I have said you can just 'snap out' of depression? As per my reply to him, I thought I had put a pretty well reasoned reply together, and started off by wishing him well. We have then arrived here with your usual hysteria about how everyone is saying this that and other. By putting something like 'the latest brain scans' you may as well just say I have no idea but here are my ill informed gibberings anyway. As per usual, you don't have a clue.

There are numerous clinical studies and national guidance documents that show / recommend exercise for depressed individuals:

Cooney et al (2014) https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/1881295?redirect=true

"Exercise is associated with a greater reduction in depression symptoms compared with no treatment, placebo, or active control interventions, such as relaxation or meditation."

Mead et al (2009) - Cochrane library http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD004366.pub4/full

"We found exercise did seem to improve the symptoms of depression, but we cannot be sure exactly how effective it is, or the most effective type of exercise. The evidence suggests that exercise probably needs to be continued in the longer-term for benefits on mood to be maintained."

NICE 2009, last update 2016 (NICE are the organisation who implement evidence into clinical practice - it's basically gold standard)

https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg90/ifp/chapter/treatments-for-mild-to-moderate-depression

Executive summary - we recommend exercise amongst other interventions for depression.



I'm at an absolute loss as to your train of thought here. Where have I, or anyone else for that matter, suggested that CBT will help with brain tumours? Therefore, where have you got this madness from?



Ah, I think I get it. You actually believe that the brain shrinks and grows in size through life depending on whether or not someone is depressed? You therefore think that if CBT can shrink the brain...oh Jesus wept...

I think what you are trying to allude to is the concept of neuroplasticity, and by relation to this, Activity-dependent plasticity. This is in a nutshell the concept that as you have new experiences, the neurones in your brain can change to re-enforce that particular pathway. When you learn to ride a bike as a child, you develop certain motor-control elements, and as you do it more, you re-enforce them until you master it. In relation to depression, if you remain depressed, your neuronal make up changes to re-enforce that. Your brain doesn't grow per se, rather neural pathways become stronger / the chemical makeup of the brain changes.

Before making a statement like "As we all know that the brain is able to shrink and increase in size", it might be an idea to check your factual accuracy? I suppose to be fair to you, the brain can grow in size in adult life, and when it does it is a medical emergency due to the raised inter-cranial pressure, and it involves a surgeon rapidly drilling holes in / cutting the top of your skull off to relieve it. Brain shrinking occurs with age, but again it is a one way ticket - it doesn't shrink and then get bigger again.



If you want some bedtime reading, there was a report published a little while ago called the five year forward view for mental health:

https://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Mental-Health-Taskforce-FYFV-final.pdf

This details the changes that need to occur within the NHS, and infrastructure at large in order to accommodate the needs of the growing mental health issue. A large amount of time and money has been and is being spent on this. We already have medications for the neurological changes as you put it - selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs), serotonin and norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors (SNRIs) and tricyclic antidepressants (TCAs) to name a few. How well do you suppose treating the underlying brain chemistry is going given that more people are reporting mental health issues? You think this is a raging success? What are you suggesting here, brain surgery? As per everything you have written, you just quite simply have no idea what you are talking about.



Except as has been widely reported in the news recently:

NHS fertility services have suffered their biggest cuts since national standards for IVF were introduced in 2004, a report has indicated.

Just 12 per cent of NHS clinical commissioning groups (CCGs) in England offer three full cycles of IVF, in line with national best practice guidance, down from 24 per cent in 2013.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/ivf-nhs-treatment-fertility-lists-wait-patients-lottery-budget-cuts-a8028116.html

So, actually it would appear that the NHS isn't more interested in providing IVF treatment. Quite the opposite in-fact.

You quite simply are grossly mis-informed, and in all honesty if I may be so bold, just plain ignorant. I very much suspect the above will fall on death ears, but if nothing else, it serves as a reminder to me just how ill informed the general public are about their health and the NHS at large. I'm actually meeting up with our mental health team early next week - I'm going to print your reply out for our coffee break to provide a little light entertainment. I'll let you know how much collective sighing went on if you want?

Please do and while you are at it could you please ask why there are no occupational health departments for people who have just left hospital after a stay in the mental health ward? Could you also please ask why the medication for schizophrenia and bi-polar is so old fashioned. I would also like to know the research behind ECT that shows that it works. The side effects for some of the bi-polar medication causes tremours could you please find out why we don't have better medication for these serious illnesses I would love to know the answer. The SSRIs that I take work for me but they don't work for a lot of other people. In the time I have been taking them chemotherapy medications have improved enormously but I don't see the same improvement in medication for mental illnesses. I also know that SSRIs do not work in the way that it was thought they would work.

You might be interested in the research into what the brains of taxi drivers looked like after they had learned the knowledge and also what they looked like after they had retired. I found that quite interesting.

I would also like to know why this research is wrong. https://inews.co.uk/news/brain-scans-can-detect-signs-depression-anxiety/

I suppose this research is wrong too? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-16086233

This from the NHS about how it is thought ( they don't actually know) that SSRIs work https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/antidepressants/ This page also explains about TCAs.

I have taken Seroxat. The side effects were really really nasty. I was told to persevere with them even though I would wake up in the morning after sleeping with a neckache where the tremors had caused movement between my body and my head during the night. So don't tell me how wonderful the treatments are because I know how bad some of them can be.

I can't get better from depression by taking exercise or getting out more. I have to take medication. So don't tell me that exercise will cure my mental illness because I know it won't. Just as exercise won't cure a brain tumour.

I suppose that this would be acceptable in a cancer ward or on a maternity ward? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-36806300

Aren't you interested in the views of patients using the NHS mental health services? It is a shame really because the police service have been on courses in how to talk to and care for mentally ill people. Shouldn't that be the job of the NHS though not the police?

Has it ever occured to you that Economic might be suffering from the poor quality of care provided by the NHS to people with a mental illness?

When you are having a little laugh at what I wrote could you also find out why parity of care is still not happening? https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/verdict/has-government-put-mental-health-equal-footing-physical-health

Cakeguts

economic wrote: »

It was never meant to work - its not even a therapy. its a scam. But thats not surprising given its the NHS - all they want is a cheap bulk pretend solution to all of this country's mental health problems so it looks like they are doing something.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2828509/CBT-scam-waste-money-Popular-talking-therapy-not-long-term-solution-says-leading-psychologist.html

I agree with you over this. The clue was always there. It was never used with severe depression. It was suggested only for mild or moderate depression. If it actually worked it would have worked with all degrees of depression. What it actually did was make the patient think that they were getting help when in fact all that was happening was the NHS was waiting for the depressed person either to get fed up and go away or for the depression to improve by itself which if there was a reason for it like a divorce it would eventually.