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The Great Big Homelessness/Capitalism/Socialism Thread
Comments
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There goes some more research that has probably been paid for out of charitable donations and is mostly a waste of time.
You have to go back to why people take drugs and alcohol and in many cases it is due to a failing by the NHS. The NHS is really really bad at mental illness. Many people with a mental illness finish up self medicating. They can't get any help from the NHS so they use drink or drugs instead.
Some of the housing charities use children in adverts to scam the public out of money.
Children finish up living in homeless hostels because of choices made by their parents. These parents are entitled to their choices in life. No charity has the right to dictate to parents what they should or shouldn't choose to do. Those same parents had a choice to find somewhere else to live. If they want to house their children in a homeless hostel no one has the right to say that they shouldn't.
No charity can find housing for anyone unless they buy or rent properties for them. They can't do anymore than the parents themselves.
People take drink and drugs not because they've been failed by the NHS but because they've usually had some traumatic experience earlier in life. A minority are prone to addiction as well. The number of people who actually choose to be addicts are few and far between. I feel sorry for anyone who finds themselves homeless, usually these people have already given up on life and that's when they become a drain. Because they no longer have any place in society, they know how people perceive them and they give up hope.
The solution isn't a cure but prevention.0 -
Millions of people use drugs or are alcoholic but are not on the streets
The people on the streets want to be on the streets.
Often they are housed and they just go back onto the streets. Sometimes they are not homeless eg the council has sorted them out a hostel or room yet they still opt to go onto the streets to beg or steel or just pass the day they then might go and sleep in their housing before going back to bed or steel or loiter on the streets.
I am not talking about the people who are on the streets for a few short days. They get housed and come off the streets. The long term street 'sleepers' have made a livelihood of it
The alternative view is that these people are decent functional people who have fallen on hard times. They are hard working have no addictions or dysfunctions they just got into a bit if bad luck so are now homeless for years at a time. No social services or police care about them and no charities want to help them they have fallen through the net.
Which one sounds more plausible?0 -
Jack_Johnson_the_acorn wrote: »People take drink and drugs not because they've been failed by the NHS but because they've usually had some traumatic experience earlier in life. A minority are prone to addiction as well. The number of people who actually choose to be addicts are few and far between. I feel sorry for anyone who finds themselves homeless, usually these people have already given up on life and that's when they become a drain. Because they no longer have any place in society, they know how people perceive them and they give up hope.
The solution isn't a cure but prevention.
There is peer pressure to take drugs and drink
My secondary school must have been one of the worst in the country.
I don't recall a single lesson or teacher saying avoid drunk and drugs and gambling it leads to homelessness and poverty. Making a fool of yourself to impress 15 year olds you won't even keep in contact with isn't worth it.
I don't know if schools are still like this I hope they have improved.0 -
There is peer pressure to take drugs and drink
My secondary school must have been one of the worst in the country.
I don't recall a single lesson or teacher saying avoid drunk and drugs and gambling it leads to homelessness and poverty. Making a fool of yourself to impress 15 year olds you won't even keep in contact with isn't worth it.
I don't know if schools are still like this I hope they have improved.
There's a difference to smoking some weed in your youth to becoming a homeless crack addict. Gambling might lead to temporary homelessness but it's unlikely to cause permanent homelessness.
Peer pressure is not the cause of homeless in Great Britain.
I've worked with many vulnerable adults and in the majority of cases there problems are cause by past trauma. This is why so many ex serviceman end up homeless.0 -
Millions of people use drugs or are alcoholic but are not on the streets
The people on the streets want to be on the streets.
Often they are housed and they just go back onto the streets. Sometimes they are not homeless eg the council has sorted them out a hostel or room yet they still opt to go onto the streets to beg or steel or just pass the day they then might go and sleep in their housing before going back to bed or steel or loiter on the streets.
I am not talking about the people who are on the streets for a few short days. They get housed and come off the streets. The long term street 'sleepers' have made a livelihood of it
The alternative view is that these people are decent functional people who have fallen on hard times. They are hard working have no addictions or dysfunctions they just got into a bit if bad luck so are now homeless for years at a time. No social services or police care about them and no charities want to help them they have fallen through the net.
Which one sounds more plausible?
This is nonsense. I'd say an insignificant minority want to be on the street. Why would anyone choose to risk being mugged, abused, assaulted or murdered.... Sleeping rough is not something you choose unless you think the alternative is worse.
The alternative is sobriety in a place where you are considered a drain a loser, scum. With little to no chance of improving your situation unless you're lucky enough to be born with a natural intelligence that few of us are.
How many homeless people have you conversed with? What makes you think so many people are choosing the nightmare of homelessness?0 -
Jack_Johnson_the_acorn wrote: »This is nonsense. I'd say an insignificant minority want to be on the street. Why would anyone choose to risk being mugged, abused, assaulted or murdered.... Sleeping rough is not something you choose unless you think the alternative is worse.
Why would anyone want to be a proustite? Yet its reasonable to say those women working for years as prostitutes want to be prostitutes.The alternative is sobriety in a place where you are considered a drain a loser, scum. With little to no chance of improving your situation unless you're lucky enough to be born with a natural intelligence that few of us are.
I not making a judgment on how they got to that point. I accept in their shoes and with their experience and with their brain I would be in exactly the position. I just don't see the value in pretending that long term street sleepers are not dysfunctional addictsHow many homeless people have you conversed with? What makes you think so many people are choosing the nightmare of homelessness?
People get used to it
In the same way people get used to 3rd world poverty or slavery or prison
Once more I am talking about long term street homeless not the short term kid that rubs away from home and sleeps rough for two days before the police pick him up and the council sort him out and he doesn't go back on the streets.0 -
Jack_Johnson_the_acorn wrote: »There's a difference to smoking some weed in your youth to becoming a homeless crack addict. Gambling might lead to temporary homelessness but it's unlikely to cause permanent homelessness.
Peer pressure is not the cause of homeless in Great Britain.
I've worked with many vulnerable adults and in the majority of cases there problems are cause by past trauma. This is why so many ex serviceman end up homeless.
There are no real necessities or advantages to taking any drugs or even alcohol
Kids should be discouraged sure it might not sink in for 80% but maybe 20% would be put off by it.
I don't recall any adult not at school ever saying don't do drugs or alcohol or gambling it just leads to loss and harm
And yes I am aware 99.99% of addicts don't become homeless but they do go to the bottom of society. So avoid drinking and drugs its high risk low/nil reward.
People who suffer trauma are or become dysfunctional and that leads to difficult lives.
We should help all dysfunctional people
What I object to is the propaganda that free market capatilism is the cause of dysfunctional people and families0 -
Jack_Johnson_the_acorn wrote: »People take drink and drugs not because they've been failed by the NHS but because they've usually had some traumatic experience earlier in life. A minority are prone to addiction as well. The number of people who actually choose to be addicts are few and far between. I feel sorry for anyone who finds themselves homeless, usually these people have already given up on life and that's when they become a drain. Because they no longer have any place in society, they know how people perceive them and they give up hope.
The solution isn't a cure but prevention.
It's good to read a post from someone who is a fellow front line public sector worker. Like me you actually work with the vulnerable groups being discussed. Instead of being listened too and given credit for the work you do......you are villified and asked if you do this role because you coudn't find work in the private sector. Anyone with an ounce of sense would understand that working in the protection of children or vulnerable adults field is one of the most important jobs someone could do. The impact you have on the future lives of people is massive. The responsibility to get it right is huge and when things go wrong the consequences can be very serious. This is why there are so many unfilled posts in the field. It takes a certain type of person to do this work and credit to you......and me;) and Tromking etc. Some of us choose to do things because we know that quality is not just defined by somethings financial worth. Nothing wrong with being MSE minded but some on here, (judging by their posts) have personal values that would make scrooge seem angelic.:eek:0 -
People who suffer trauma are or become dysfunctional and that leads to difficult lives.
We should help all dysfunctional people
What I object to is the propaganda that free market capatilism is the cause of dysfunctional people and families
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jul/18/youth-jails-staggering-decline-standards-england-wales-peter-clarke-prisons-inspector-reportMr Clarke’s report described the situation in institutions holding young offenders as “dire” and said: “By February this year we had reached the conclusion that there was not a single establishment that we inspected in England and Wales in which it was safe to hold children and young people.
“The fact that we had reached a position where we could not judge any institution to be sufficiently safe was bad enough, but the speed of decline has been staggering.
The reasons for this slump in standards are no doubt complex, but need to be understood and addressed as a matter of urgency.”
It said that there had been a “startling increase” in violence across all prisons, fuelled by drugs and staff shortages. The result is a growing number of deaths and injuries.
The fact is whatever you object to, the Govmt of the day exercises very close control over prison policy.....accepting that this Govmt has presided over a huge shortage in Prison Officers and those who are in post have been deflected from doing any rehabilitation work to concentrate on the pure control aspects of their job. This means that often prisoners are often locked in cells for 23 hours a day with all the obvious repercussions.
The above is one small example of Govmt policy affecting outcomes in standards of human health, opportunities etc. Now use your imagination and think of all the different ways in which Govmt impacts on our lives and think how the way the Govmt does that impacts on our well being.
Also when talking about dysfunction its important to actually understand what this means and the relationship between individual responsibility and the responsibilities of the wider community/society. People will always argue over this and that in itself is political. What often helps here is if people try to understand that people turn out the way they do because of what happens to them in their early years. The theoretical basis for this can be found in the work of John Bowlby and his work on 'Attachment Theory'......simply summarised here:-During the evolution of the human species, it would have been the babies who stayed close to their mothers that would have survived to have children of their own. Bowlby hypothesized that both infants and mothers have evolved a biological need to stay in contact with each other.
These attachment behaviors initially function like fixed action patterns and all share the same function. The infant produces innate ‘social releaser’ behaviors such as crying and smiling that stimulate caregiving from adults. The determinant of attachment is not food but care and responsiveness.
Bowlby suggested that a child would initially form only one attachment and that the attachment figure acted as a secure base for exploring the world. The attachment relationship acts as a prototype for all future social relationships so disrupting it can have severe consequences.https://www.simplypsychology.org/bowlby.html
Of course this is just the start and it gets far more complex. Social learning theory is a huge area and Bowlby is just a taster:) Other social scientists have commented that perhaps Bowlby has concentrated too much on the maternal role and other attachments can also be beneficial. What is indisputable however is that life chances from infancy onwards are crucial to an individuals development. Society and Govmt have a crucial role in relation to this!0 -
So what you are saying is that in the UK wages are high we have full employment lots of freedom and opportunity. There is no poverty but there are dysfunctional people and families.0
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