Passive Vents in Bedroom or PIV?

saintscouple

Hi,

Desperate for some advice as i'm banging my head against a brick wall.

I am a housing association tenant who moved in to the property some 18 months ago. There have a been a number of problems and in that short space of time have had all old timber framed windows ripped out and upvc windows put in, new upvc front door, (old timber back door remains), new combi boiler installed, new rads installed with a additional ones put in and other increased in size.

We have had mould problems from day one, and the above where fixes to try and cure it, but to no avail.
We are in a mid terrace 19 year old, 2 bed property with no window to the bathroom.

We have condensation on the windows most mornings, trickle vents are open at all times, and windows open ajar during the day when weather permits.
Currently we have black mould around the glazing of the timber back door, and on the new kitchen window that was installed 7 months ago.

The housing decided to call in some 'experts' Airtech Environment Services, they sent a surveyor who then advised on the following:
- Humidstat fans installed in bathroom and kitchen
- passive vents installed on exterior walls of both bedrooms.

We agreed to the humidstat fans, but raised concerns about the passive vents as due to lack of exterior wall space these would have to be installed above the beds.

The fans were installed 2 months ago and we recently had a 'data' visit where they download data from the fans and advise on the effect they have had - Attached.

They say the kitchen fan is performing as it should and all is ok...... so why is there mould growing on the window, and even when we pull the cord to boost the fan it's not powerful enough to open the louvres from the extraction vent on the outside of the external wall.

They say the bathroom fan is not coping because we refused the passive vents, and again they state this is what is needed. What it doesn't say is the concerns we had which remain unanswered, and also ignores our repeated requests that instead of passive vents, that a PIV unit is installed instead........ this was actually mentioned on one of their visits and they did a loft inspection confirming that a PIV unit could easily be installed.

I'm trying to take a step back here and asking for different eyes, are we worrying about nothing about passive vents being installed over our beds? Is a PIV unit not as effective as passive vents? or are we correct in our concerns, and have a case that the ventilation required would be better taken from the loft space, rather than knocking big holes in external walls that wouldn't be easily reversed if it caused more problems than good?

The kitchen issue i take as i a given that the fan is not extracting the air nearer to the window as the louvres are not opening - perhaps the reason the humidistat fans is giving 'normal' readings is that it has been sited far away from the window.

Any advice / recommendations most appreciated, especially on the Passive vs PIV solutions.

Thank you

Ectophile

I suspect a PIV system costs more than just drilling a hole through the wall.

It's odd to have a passive vent above a bed. Normally they are near floor level. Don't you have any outside walls where the wall isn't blocked by furniture?

Teapot55

We tackle our single-glazed timber back door with a window-vac. Also trying very hard to dry our clothes on the line in the garden. It has made things a bit better. Also opening the bathroom window for half-an-hour after having a bath.

Lorian

I'm no expert in humidity - but to me it looks like the installers are not experts in control systems.

On the DM0050 in bathroom change (or get them to change) the set point to 60% (currently its set to 75%) currently the fan rarely comes on, and not for long enough.

Change set point in kitchen to 60% or lower (it's set to 70%) - currently is looks like it never comes on.

Unless of course they are just using their controllers to log data - are they separate standalone boxes or properly wired to the fans?

Mardle

Well spotted Lorian.

If the bathroom fan is set at 75% it's never going to get rid of condensation.

saintscouple

Ectophile wrote: »

I suspect a PIV system costs more than just drilling a hole through the wall.

It's odd to have a passive vent above a bed. Normally they are near floor level. Don't you have any outside walls where the wall isn't blocked by furniture?

Nope, we are mid terrace with only 2 rooms on each level against an external wall.

Teapot55 wrote: »

We tackle our single-glazed timber back door with a window-vac. Also trying very hard to dry our clothes on the line in the garden. It has made things a bit better. Also opening the bathroom window for half-an-hour after having a bath.

We have no window in our bathroom, and we already keep the both bedroom windows open ajar during the day..... to me this is doing exactly what a passive vent would do anyhow.
We have a condenser dryer for drying clothes in the winter and never place wet clothes on radiators.

Lorian wrote: »

I'm no expert in humidity - but to me it looks like the installers are not experts in control systems.

On the DM0050 in bathroom change (or get them to change) the set point to 60% (currently its set to 75%) currently the fan rarely comes on, and not for long enough.

Change set point in kitchen to 60% or lower (it's set to 70%) - currently is looks like it never comes on.

Unless of course they are just using their controllers to log data - are they separate standalone boxes or properly wired to the fans?

Thank you, what a brilliant observation, just proves I needed that extra pair of eyes.
The humistats are standalone boxes wired to the fans.
I will raise the question to them, if they can lower the set point. Though i don't hold much hope
The survey, installation, etc is all done by this company https://www.airtechenvironmental.co.uk and they have been quite the disaster to deal with.
I did reply to the report to my housing association, desperately trying to get some understanding but with me being 'just the tenant' and not the 'customer', Airtech show no interest..... i've even copied in Airtech's MD, Andrew Cowlin, on previous communication but he has no interest in acknowledging or replying to my concerns.... again, i am 'just the tenant'.
This is the reply to the report i sent my housing and copied in Airtech...


As i say, i'll ask if they can lower the set point of the fans, and post back if / when i get a response.
Thank you

Furts

Sometimes people expect far too much. A house is built from thousands of items, as cheap as possible, without protection from wind and rain, by gangs of profit driven sub contractors. This means no house is properly built. It also means no house is perfect.

Your 19 year old home will be no different. But then accept some fundamentals - the standards of insulation, ventilation and knowledge were less then compared to now. So you have some condensation on the windows - it this really something to get worked up about?

A bathroom without a window, is not good design and also needs particular care to reflect this, and a particularly good extract fan. However if the room is not made 100% dry by you after every bath/shower then you will have excessive moisture. Likewise if the door is kept open after use.

Wooden window frames are better insulation than hollow, drained, upvc profiles. But these have now been removed - not a wise move, unless the glazing was particularly poor. But at 19 years old it is unlikely to be so.

All round I feel sympathetic to the housing association. They may be clueless, but they are spending money and resources at your home which is mind boggling. All other tenants are picking up the tab for this, so one has to ask if you are being reasonable.

saintscouple

Furts wrote: »

Sometimes people expect far too much. A house is built from thousands of items, as cheap as possible, without protection from wind and rain, by gangs of profit driven sub contractors. This means no house is properly built. It also means no house is perfect.

Your 19 year old home will be no different. But then accept some fundamentals - the standards of insulation, ventilation and knowledge were less then compared to now. So you have some condensation on the windows - it this really something to get worked up about?

A bathroom without a window, is not good design and also needs particular care to reflect this, and a particularly good extract fan. However if the room is not made 100% dry by you after every bath/shower then you will have excessive moisture. Likewise if the door is kept open after use.

Wooden window frames are better insulation than hollow, drained, upvc profiles. But these have now been removed - not a wise move, unless the glazing was particularly poor. But at 19 years old it is unlikely to be so.

All round I feel sympathetic to the housing association. They may be clueless, but they are spending money and resources at your home which is mind boggling. All other tenants are picking up the tab for this, so one has to ask if you are being reasonable.

Thank you for your thoughts,

We follow all lifestyle guidelines we have been given including bathroom door remains closed, and shower is wiped down after each use, not drying clothes on radiators, keeping kitchen door closed, cooking with lids on pans, keeping other doors open to ensure airflow, etc, etc, etc

The window timber frames were rotting and the glazing was 4mm double glazed...... when we have a btu survey the surveyor could only class them as single glazed.

Furthermore the windows were replaced as part of a planned works programme, not in reply to the issues only we were having.

We simply wanted additional trickle vents added to the windows but this was refused and the housing insisted on bringing the company in, their choice not ours.

We didn't have a problem in the kitchen, but this company ripped out the perfectly good extractor fan we had and replaced it with a less powerful humidistat fan, and now we have mould growing on the window. And despite washing it down it still reappears.

The inline fan they replaced in the bathroom was a like for like, same output etc, that was already installed only 6 months prior and working fine. The housing installed the previous fan on a timer saying it would be better than the broken fan we had on a humidistat...... That first fan on a humidistat we had no problems with until it broke and it took 6 weeks to replace.

How the housing association chose to spend their money is nothing to do with me, though it irritates me that the contractor they chose to come in, have made the replacements to their own branded fans that are less powerful, set at higher humidity setpoint, and done nothing but only worsen the situation.

You are quite correct in stating that no house is perfect and we expect condensation at this time of year, but not at this extreme, and certainly not for the changes implemented to make the matter far worse than when it was when reported.

We are currently overriding the humidistat fan in the bathroom by using the boost cord before a shower and leaving it on for approx 2 hours afterwards if we can to help the situation there. But the kitchen fan is too underpowered, not even lifting the louvres of the extractor vent to let the moist air out. In addition to this we have bedroom and kitchen windows open ajar during the day, with out bedroom window open during the night too.

So no, i don't think we are being unreasonable, we are doing all we can to help the situation for which the contractor to date has only made things worse.

Furts

If I were the housing association making a frank off the record comment it would go along these lines. There is a huge problem of excessive workloads coupled with poorly trained/motivated/qualified staff in housing associations. To this add countless incompetent contractors who exist only because they are cheap, cheap, cheap. These contractors are not managed , nor inspected, nor supervised. Hence your situation is far from unusual.

The housing association are likely to reach a point where they say enough has been done and point the finger at your lifestyle. For example, some people dry a shower screen and forget all the water trapped at the built in drainage. Others forget to wipe dry every tile covering the wall and others forget to dry all vertical surfaces including the door. Other people keep the heating set too low, or for insufficient time, so their windows remain cool.

Harsh as it may sound, housing associations do not have the ability to deliver the service that you expect. In fairness, this is because the vast majority of tenants do not demand that level of service, and also the vast majority are also not prepared to pay for an improved level of service.

I know the workloads, I know the crazy costings and I know some procedures that exist.

Best of luck!

ComicGeek

I normally agree with Furts but not on this occasion. While some condensation is normal, mould growth can never be tolerated - I haven’t yet in more than 15 yrs had a project where moisture levels couldn’t be reduced enough to prevent mould growth reoccurring. And that’s with some truely bad builds.

Internal moisture levels in the kitchen don’t raise alarms with me. Strange that the fan isn’t sufficient to open the external vent, definitely needs to be checked as good extract always helps. If you’re getting condensation on door frames, then it’s possibly poor frames that’s causing the problem as the dew point is low.

Internal moisture levels in the bathroom are high, so lowering the humidity set point would definitely help. They’ve set it at 70% as this is technically the point at which mould growth starts, but would make much more sense to set this at 55-60%.

As the OP states, the passive vents would only repeat what they are currently doing with opening windows and won’t make any improvements from this.

I would push for the kitchen extract to be fixed and the set point for the bathroom to be lowered, and then monitor for another month. The house can take time to dry out, so asking the HA to provide a dehumidifier the month would also help.

Furts

ComicGeek wrote: »

I normally agree with Furts but not on this occasion. While some condensation is normal, mould growth can never be tolerated

It is all a matter of how much condensation, and no forum folks have seen this. Equally the mould could be of tiddly proportions. The complaint 50% comprises mould growing on a new upvc window. This is unlikely because mould does not feed off plastic. Perhaps the sealant has a mould growth? If so address this - it is common to bodge in cheap sealant where the replacement window abutts the wall. Perhaps cover strips have not been used? In both cases I have commented about cheap, cheap, cheap contractors so over to OP here.

Of course the remedial works will be poor - it goes with the territory here. Another visit from the contractors means they can draw another payment from the housing association. Which again goes with the territory, and all this wasted cost, and incompetence, is ultimately funded by the tenants! Nothing new there.

But there is also an elephant in the room here. If condensation is wiped up, so the surface is dry, then mould will not occur. Which goes back to the point I was trying to make in my posts. A point that is likely to also be made, at some future point, by the housing association!