Passive Vents in Bedroom or PIV?

saintscouple

ComicGeek wrote: »

I normally agree with Furts but not on this occasion. While some condensation is normal, mould growth can never be tolerated - I haven’t yet in more than 15 yrs had a project where moisture levels couldn’t be reduced enough to prevent mould growth reoccurring. And that’s with some truely bad builds.

Internal moisture levels in the kitchen don’t raise alarms with me. Strange that the fan isn’t sufficient to open the external vent, definitely needs to be checked as good extract always helps. If you’re getting condensation on door frames, then it’s possibly poor frames that’s causing the problem as the dew point is low.

Internal moisture levels in the bathroom are high, so lowering the humidity set point would definitely help. They’ve set it at 70% as this is technically the point at which mould growth starts, but would make much more sense to set this at 55-60%.

As the OP states, the passive vents would only repeat what they are currently doing with opening windows and won’t make any improvements from this.

I would push for the kitchen extract to be fixed and the set point for the bathroom to be lowered, and then monitor for another month. The house can take time to dry out, so asking the HA to provide a dehumidifier the month would also help.

The contractor has said the kitchen fan is sufficient, but they will change the extraction to vent to one of their own cowls!
I see a pattern here, and as Furts has indicated, another sell for contractor own branded goods. And this is what i'm seeing, this isn't a company with a primary concern to reduce humidity levels, it's one that can create scenarios and evidence to sell more of their own branded good.... it's a sales company to which i'm sure these operatives of the company are targeted to make.
We have a perfectly good extraction vent that was installed in the summer, that worked fine with the higher powered extraction fan that we had, but they replace it with a lower powered fan, and now was it's the extraction vent that's the problem!!
I just don't understand why the HA isn't seeing this.

I have emailed the HA and already requested that the setpoints on the fans be lowered and to give it a couple of months to see if that improves the situation, fingers crossed they accept.

We had purchased a 2nd hand dehumidifier ourselves to try and remedy the problem ourselves before we contacted the HA. I had redecorated every room, undercoating with Zinsser mould resistant paint, an expensive practice to do the whole house, but it is working well and got rid of what was already on the walls.
The dehumidifier didn't work very well and was extremely noisy, which i suspect looking back the unit was faulty, but because of our experience it has put us off forking out for another and the HA will not provide one on loan.
It was when we i was revisiting the dehumidifier idea that i stumbled across the PIV idea, and have read nothing but rave reviews about them - something we would have considered purchasing ourselves, but it's outside what we can afford, and then the electrical installation added to that, it's a no-go.
The contract actually have their own brand PIV, to which i am surprised they haven't recommended, perhaps the sales bonuses are on passive vents this quarter.

This is the contractor btw, http://www.airtechenvironmental.co.uk
Nice website and can read how passionate they are on their own branded products, only for social housing though.
I did email the MD of the company, citing my concerns, got an acknowledgment of receipt of the email, but was ignored with no reply..... I am just the tenant, not the HA which is the paying customer i guess the reason for that.
The company also have minimal online presence, i.e now social media presence, they keep it very low key.

Furts wrote: »

It is all a matter of how much condensation, and no forum folks have seen this. Equally the mould could be of tiddly proportions. The complaint 50% comprises mould growing on a new upvc window. This is unlikely because mould does not feed off plastic. Perhaps the sealant has a mould growth? If so address this - it is common to bodge in cheap sealant where the replacement window abutts the wall. Perhaps cover strips have not been used? In both cases I have commented about cheap, cheap, cheap contractors so over to OP here.

Of course the remedial works will be poor - it goes with the territory here. Another visit from the contractors means they can draw another payment from the housing association. Which again goes with the territory, and all this wasted cost, and incompetence, is ultimately funded by the tenants! Nothing new there.

But there is also an elephant in the room here. If condensation is wiped up, so the surface is dry, then mould will not occur. Which goes back to the point I was trying to make in my posts. A point that is likely to also be made, at some future point, by the housing association!

KItchen window mould is on the sealant around the window, which i am wiping off with a white vinegar solution to keep at bay. We also have black mould around the glazing on the back door where the glazing is only 4mm, this has been from day one, i sand it down treat it with antifungal paint, but it still comes back here. HA say door is functional so won't do anything until review is due in 2028.

I wipe the condensation each morning, using a squeegee and a cloth, but it keeps coming back that same day. I have tried everything that has been suggested but it keeps coming back.

That reminds me, when the operative installed the kitchen fan, she stated the wall above the kitchen window was damp and cold, and that this is not right. I inform the contractor and HA of what was said, but nothing....... guessing the contractor only sell fans and don't do structural remedial works.

Here's their costings for what they've done -

Furts

saintscouple wrote: »

I just don't understand why the HA isn't seeing this.

Because they do not have the staff, and they (often) do not have the expertise. Then brutally, or cynically, they do not want to supervise, or inspect, any work done by the contractors. Here it is better for them to put their heads in the sand - what they do not see gives an immediate defence mechanism.

With regards your window sealant - which is a minor area of your wall and be honest here! ... it is most likely to be the wrong sealant. Again if cheap, cheap, cheap has been followed then non fungicide acrylic caulk will be on the contractors materials list, and standard builders silicone will be there in lieu of sanitary sealant. The result is mould growth - which coincidentally you are complaining about. The housing association may be guilty here - it depends on what they specified. But also take a tip - sanitary sealant should be within the knowledge base, whilst types of acrylic, and their use, will not!

Lorian

The text of their works is interesting. the fan is set to trickle in the kitchen which is probably helping.

The DM0050 is the bathroom definitely needs its set point lowering to 60%.

If I was the installer and the customer showed me the graph with the set point at 75% and the fan not operating, as in your situation I'd be pretty embarrassed.

A dehumidifier, if you can afford will help - but it will cost you to buy and run - get the fan working for a week first and then get them to reproduce the graph.

NB when buying a dehumidifier I prefer desiccant based ones for lower operating noise. I have one of these, its small and works well, but of course its £££:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/EcoAir-DD122-Mini-Desiccant-Dehumidifier/dp/B00I5NEZ78

saintscouple

Lorian wrote: »

The text of their works is interesting. the fan is set to trickle in the kitchen which is probably helping.

The DM0050 is the bathroom definitely needs its set point lowering to 60%.

If I was the installer and the customer showed me the graph with the set point at 75% and the fan not operating, as in your situation I'd be pretty embarrassed.

A dehumidifier, if you can afford will help - but it will cost you to buy and run - get the fan working for a week first and then get them to reproduce the graph.

NB when buying a dehumidifier I prefer desiccant based ones for lower operating noise. I have one of these, its small and works well, but of course its £££:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/EcoAir-DD122-Mini-Desiccant-Dehumidifier/dp/B00I5NEZ78

It was the sales engineer for the midlands that came and took the readings and then supplied the report the next day.
And despite the setpoint at 75, and us having both bedrooms open during the day, he points the finger of the problem with us refusing passive vents and there not being return air!
It really is a joke, the whole point on us having the windows open is to aid the return air that the trickle vents in the windows are already providing!
The company stance seems to be their is no fault or requirement in adjustment in their equipment, for their equipment is perfect and the only solution is for them to install more of their equipment... oh yeah and i did say the data was extracted and report compiled by the Sales engineer for the Midlands..... even i can see sales is the game here.

We're going to pass on the dehumidifier route for now as i'm pretty certain with a correct setpoint of 60 in the bathroom this will show improvements.
I'm certainly in the mindset that i don't want either passive or piv installed, as i wouldn't want the HA spending more money with this company, not on my behalf for the joke of a service we've received to date.

I've just got my fingers crossed that lowering the setpoint is acceptable and that a data reading can be done in a months or 2 time to compare readings.

If lowering the setpoint is refused and i'm told it's passive vents or nothing, do you think it would easy enough for myself to lower it? i'm thinking, power off at isolation switch, remove front plate, and there must be a little dial or similar that i adjust with a small flat-head?

Thank you

Lorian

saintscouple wrote: »

If lowering the setpoint is refused and i'm told it's passive vents or nothing, do you think it would easy enough for myself to lower it? i'm thinking, power off at isolation switch, remove front plate, and there must be a little dial or similar that i adjust with a small flat-head?

Thank you

If they refuse to lower the set point then they don't understand what thy are doing IMHO.

These are microprocessor controlled humidistats - I've check and the manual is not available online. I'm 99% certain under the face place will be a USB port they will need to plug a PC in with their control application to be able to change the set point.

saintscouple

Furts wrote: »

If I were the housing association making a frank off the record comment it would go along these lines. There is a huge problem of excessive workloads coupled with poorly trained/motivated/qualified staff in housing associations. To this add countless incompetent contractors who exist only because they are cheap, cheap, cheap. These contractors are not managed , nor inspected, nor supervised. Hence your situation is far from unusual.

The housing association are likely to reach a point where they say enough has been done and point the finger at your lifestyle. For example, some people dry a shower screen and forget all the water trapped at the built in drainage. Others forget to wipe dry every tile covering the wall and others forget to dry all vertical surfaces including the door. Other people keep the heating set too low, or for insufficient time, so their windows remain cool.

Harsh as it may sound, housing associations do not have the ability to deliver the service that you expect. In fairness, this is because the vast majority of tenants do not demand that level of service, and also the vast majority are also not prepared to pay for an improved level of service.

I know the workloads, I know the crazy costings and I know some procedures that exist.

Best of luck!

Lorian wrote: »

If they refuse to lower the set point then they don't understand what thy are doing IMHO.

These are microprocessor controlled humidistats - I've check and the manual is not available online. I'm 99% certain under the face place will be a USB port they will need to plug a PC in with their control application to be able to change the set point.

Lets hope they will agree then, as you are correct, as this is how they took the data from the sensor, by connecting to it from the usb port underneath.

Will keep the post updated on what next steps are agreed.

Thank you

saintscouple

Email from Airtech this morning, agreeing for both sensors to be adjusted down to 60 to see how they perform. The cowl to be upgraded for the kitchen fan, and they will sterilise the mould around the kitchen window and back door.
Now just have to wait for another department in the company to call me, to arrange a date when it can be done.

Thanks for all your comments, i feel with your observations and recommendations highlighted to the company and them acting on them, we could now be heading down the right path at long last.

Lorian

Please ask them to collect data and rebuild the graphs again after a week or two of the set points being lowered. If you get these and I don't spot the update to the thread feel free to PM me.

saintscouple

Lorian wrote: »

Please ask them to collect data and rebuild the graphs again after a week or two of the set points being lowered. If you get these and I don't spot the update to the thread feel free to PM me.

Yes, i'll certainly ask them to come back and do the report again so the graphs can be compared.
Not sure how long it will take though, as got to wait 2 1/2 weeks for them to come out and lower the set-points!

will keep you posted.

Mardle

It might be worth getting a couple of cheap humidity meters from ebay. They probably won't give you an accurate reading but should show the humidity level dropping.