Grade II house with upvc & cement slate roof

Wablodablo

Found a lovely Terrance town house in Cheltenham. It's grade II listed.

Had a full building survey done and couple of things came up:

1. The top floor 2nd storey has upvc windows in the bathroom and top bedroom. These are both on the rear of the property.

2. Surveyor found the roof has cement slate tiles not natural slate. Roof cannot be seen from ground level.

So I understand both would have required consent. However the current owner 9 yrs claims these were done before her ownership.
The building was listed in 1983, how do I or seller know whether the windows and roof were replaced and if after the building was listed in 1983?

Do the council hold pictures or records of a building at time of listing?

Also I don't really understand fully my options moving forward . . . Any guidance?

00ec25

for grade 2 listing windows and roof most certainly would have required consent and the council will have that recorded.

simply ask the listed buildings officer at the relevant council

Wablodablo wrote: »

Also I don't really understand fully my options moving forward . . . Any guidance?

google?

http://www.brodies.com/binformed/legal-updates/implications-of-owning-a-listed-building

G_M

Trouble with asking the listed buildings officer is

a) he might then enforce changes and the seller will e right p*ssed off with you!

b) you (and the seller) will be unable to take out indemnity insurance against enforcement since the officer has been informed (imagine getting a cancer diagnosis from your doctor and then taking out health insurance to cover cancer......)

Corporal_Perkins

Wablodablo wrote: »

So I understand both would have required consent. However the current owner 9 yrs claims these were done before her ownership.
The building was listed in 1983, how do I or seller know whether the windows and roof were replaced and if after the building was listed in 1983?

Do the council hold pictures or records of a building at time of listing?

One clue to the possible age of the windows is if you look on the alluminium spacer bar that separates the 2 panes of glass there may well be a date stamp ( 04/12). Sometimes these fail and get replaced but it can give you an idea of age. I'm surprised the issue didn't arise when the current owners purchased the house.

Also I don't really understand fully my options moving forward . . . Any guidance?

Knock them down by around £5k+ , apply for LPC and replace the windows with timber ones that are in keeping with the age of the cottage/house.

EachPenny

Have you checked the listing details Historic England have?
https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/advanced-search?searchType=nhleadvancedsearch

If the listing says the building has cement slate tiles and uPVC windows then you can relax a bit.

If only the cement slate tiles are mentioned then you can relax a little less, but you would at least know that it may only be the windows which are a problem.

It is important to understand that listing isn't to do with how a building was originally built, but about the story it tells at the point it was listed. People often assume that things like uPVC windows can simply be ripped out and replaced with wooden ones because that would make the building more 'authentic', but that isn't how listing works.

You need to be able to persuade the LBO that the changes proposed are not detrimental to 'the story' and enhance the building in some way. Unless you were very unlucky it is unlikely a LBO would object to the replacement of uPVC windows, but they might insist on wooden ones being painted a specific shade of white rather being left natural wood or stained with the colour you prefer.

If you are someone who likes to do things "your way" (I'm not suggesting you are ) then you have to think very carefully about buying a listed building as someone who doesn't have to pay a penny towards the building or alteration works gets to tell you what you can and cannot do.

camptownraces

Cement "slates" can be a real risk, as they are so much heavier than natural slates that they need enhanced roof timbers to support them.

Get a proper surveyor to take a look inside the loft.

If the listed status was made in 1983, you are only obliged to keep the building as it was then, and not revert to the original construction.

If you really want to replace UPVC windows with double glazed hardwood framed windows, it'll cost a packet.

Wablodablo

G_M wrote: »

Trouble with asking the listed buildings officer is

a) he might then enforce changes and the seller will e right p*ssed off with you!

b) you (and the seller) will be unable to take out indemnity insurance against enforcement since the officer has been informed (imagine getting a cancer diagnosis from your doctor and then taking out health insurance to cover cancer......)

That's very interesting. Didn't realise such implications could result in an enquiry. So what would the indemnity insurance actually do?

Wablodablo

Corporal_Perkins wrote: »

One clue to the possible age of the windows is if you look on the alluminium spacer bar that separates the 2 panes of glass there may well be a date stamp ( 04/12). Sometimes these fail and get replaced but it can give you an idea of age. I'm surprised the issue didn't arise when the current owners purchased the house.

Knock them down by around £5k+ , apply for LPC and replace the windows with timber ones that are in keeping with the age of the cottage/house.

Thanks, may suggest this to seller/agent. Regarding taking £5
K off I would have considered that if it was only the windows, however replacing the roof would be substantially more money and far more risk.

Wablodablo

EachPenny wrote: »

Have you checked the listing details Historic England have?

If the listing says the building has cement slate tiles and uPVC windows then you can relax a bit.

If only the cement slate tiles are mentioned then you can relax a little less, but you would at least know that it may only be the windows which are a problem

If you are someone who likes to do things "your way" (I'm not suggesting you are ) then you have to think very carefully about buying a listed building as someone who doesn't have to pay a penny towards the building or alteration works gets to tell you what you can and cannot do.

I have no issue with keeping a building within character part of the allure to be honest. However I don't see why I should pay for other people's (previous owners) issues.

Listing is as below (without specific listing number)

List entry Description
Summary of Building
Legacy Record - This information may be included in the List Entry Details.

Reasons for Designation
Legacy Record - This information may be included in the List Entry Details.

History
Legacy Record - This information may be included in the List Entry Details.

Details

14/12/83

GV II

Pair of houses. c1827-40 with later additions and alterations. Stucco over brick with concealed roof, brick and stucco end and party-wall stacks and iron verandahs. Double depth plan with right side hallways. EXTERIOR: 3 storeys with attics, 2 first-floor windows each. Stucco detail includes 2-storey Tuscan pilasters to ground and first floors at ends, one to centre, frieze, architrave and cornice; banded rustication to ground floor drawn into voussoirs above windows. Moulded first-floor band. 1/1 sashes throughout: full-height to first floor; those to ground floor are tripartite with 1/1 side-lights and cambered heads, windows have plain reveals and sills. Entrances to right: 4-panel doors with overlights. End and party wall stacks (3 in all). Crowning blocking course and copings. INTERIOR: not inspected. SUBSIDIARY FEATURES: first floor, continuous verandah to each house with scrolled lozenge motif to uprights and Gothick frieze to tent roof.

EachPenny

Wablodablo wrote: »

1. The top floor 2nd storey has upvc windows in the bathroom and top bedroom. These are both on the rear of the property.

If it is the property it appears to be from that listing, then I would guess (and I stress guess) that there is a possibility the bathroom window was changed to facilitate the rather impressive bath, which appears to be in a relatively recently installed bathroom. A feature of the windows in the other rooms is they drop quite low to the floor which wouldn't work with the bath in the position it is in.

Again, if I've identified the right property the other windows all appear to be rather fine elegant sash windows, the uPVC bathroom window looks very 'clunky' in comparison. I would struggle to understand how a LBO would give approval for a window like that unless it replaced one which was very similar.

It also appears there has been some fairly extensive internal refurbishment carried out in a modern style, but other rooms clearly have features which (if original) might form part of the listing. The Historic England listing details doesn't include anything about the interior, but that doesn't mean that the interior is necessarily excluded from the listing.

As I said, I might be looking at completely the wrong property, and the above comments are just my speculation, but if it was me buying the property I would be somewhat skeptical if told that none of the internal work had been done within the last 9 years and none of it required the involvement of a LBO.

Also, if you check the property on Google streetview for 2012, the neighbouring house of the pair is clad in full-height scaffolding giving access to the roof level. I would be curious about what work was being done then, and whether that was something done under LBO supervision.

Corporal_Perkins

EachPenny wrote: »

Have you checked the listing details Historic England have?
https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/advanced-search?searchType=nhleadvancedsearch

If the listing says the building has cement slate tiles and uPVC windows then you can relax a bit.

If only the cement slate tiles are mentioned then you can relax a little less, but you would at least know that it may only be the windows which are a problem.

It is important to understand that listing isn't to do with how a building was originally built, but about the story it tells at the point it was listed. People often assume that things like uPVC windows can simply be ripped out and replaced with wooden ones because that would make the building more 'authentic', but that isn't how listing works.

I agree with you however Upvc windows would never be permitted and would have been fitted without Listed Consent so although the stupidity of the rules means that when a Conservation officer finds out there are Upvc windows they become part of the listing even though they were never included in the original Listing. Its important to clarify that Upvc windows would never have been permitted. Its a similar situation for up and over metal garage doors.

You need to be able to persuade the LBO that the changes proposed are not detrimental to 'the story' and enhance the building in some way. Unless you were very unlucky it is unlikely a LBO would object to the replacement of uPVC windows, but they might insist on wooden ones being painted a specific shade of white rather being left natural wood or stained with the colour you prefer.

Although colour can be an issue ist more to do with style of the proposed windows, single or double glazing and even which timber can be used. In areas of Kent around the Medway Towns Conservation officers insist on Douglas Fir being used which is a bit pedantic given the fact that most windows are painted.

If you are someone who likes to do things "your way" (I'm not suggesting you are ) then you have to think very carefully about buying a listed building as someone who doesn't have to pay a penny towards the building or alteration works gets to tell you what you can and cannot do.

And more often than not they require Scaled drawings of the proposed work which again is an additional cost.