Grade II house with upvc & cement slate roof

Corporal_Perkins

Wablodablo wrote: »

Thanks, may suggest this to seller/agent. Regarding taking £5
K off I would have considered that if it was only the windows, however replacing the roof would be substantially more money and far more risk.

Fair point, I'm only looking at this from a Joiners point of view , I have good knowledge of windows ,doors etc as 50% of my work is on Grade I & II Listed Building but I know very little about roof tiles..

EachPenny

Corporal_Perkins wrote: »

I agree with you however Upvc windows would never be permitted and would have been fitted without Listed Consent so although the stupidity of the rules means that when a Conservation officer finds out there are Upvc windows they become part of the listing even though they were never included in the original Listing. Its important to clarify that Upvc windows would never have been permitted. Its a similar situation for up and over metal garage doors.

What I was trying to explain to the OP was it depends what was there when the listing happened. If they were uPVC at that time then the uPVC windows will form part of the listing, even if they are out of keeping with the house as a whole. I would think it improbable that the windows I saw were there in 1983... but that is only a guess.

As far as I know uPVC windows which were installed after the listing without consent would not become a fixed feature of the listing, but consent would be required to replace them with something else. This is not to protect the unconsented alteration, but to ensure the further alteration is sympathetic to the original situation.

My brother had a nightmare trying to remove a uPVC window which was in place when his property had been listed. The LBO agreed to the replacement of various wooden windows, but initially was insisting the uPVC one couldn't be changed to match. The solution in the end was to have a wooden window with extra thick sections to make it look more like a uPVC one. To my mind it looks hideous and leaving the uPVC one would have been better.... and certainly cheaper

Wablodablo

EachPenny wrote: »

What I was trying to explain to the OP was it depends what was there when the listing happened. If they were uPVC at that time then the uPVC windows will form part of the listing, even if they are out of keeping with the house as a whole. I would think it improbable that the windows I saw were there in 1983... but that is only a guess.

This is part of the problem, seller says they were not changed during her 9 yrs ownership, but how do I find out if they were present when property was listed in 1983?

Also my solicitor is talking about an indemnity policy - how do they work and what does it cover/pay out for?

EachPenny

Wablodablo wrote: »

This is part of the problem, seller says they were not changed during her 9 yrs ownership, but how do I find out if they were present when property was listed in 1983?

Also my solicitor is talking about an indemnity policy - how do they work and what does it cover/pay out for?

Ultimately the only way will be to see a copy of the listing(s) held by the council. But I cannot see an obvious way of doing that whilst avoiding the issues pointed out by G_M in post #3.

But if I have the right property then it is almost impossible to believe some of the internal features have not been installed within the last 9 years, let alone since 1983. Any one of these could be a far more significant issue than the windows or roof. For example there appears to be an ultra-modern fireplace in one of the rooms. If that has been installed replacing one similar to those still existing in other rooms, and that feature is something the LBO decided need to be restored, then the bill is likely to have several zeros on it.

The problem, as you already appreciate, is figuring out what features are of importance in the listing, what changes might have been consented, and the attitude the LBO might adopt if they become involved in the future.

Other posters know a lot more about indemnity policies than me, so I'm not going to comment on that... but hopefully what I've said above will help give them a better idea of what you could potentially be dealing with.

My personal feeling if it was me is I wouldn't go ahead without first having a conversation with the LBO. But I would do so on the basis I might end up having to walk away from this house and potentially having a very angry vendor calling me rude names (or worse).

t0rt0ise

Have a look on the planning website of the local council. I know with my council I can look up any planning applications going back many years to see what was applied for and granted.

ReadingTim

If neither of the offending "features" can be seen from the street, and (taking their statement at face value) the current owner hasn't had any "trouble" with the Council's planning department in their 9 years of ownership; then it's up to you to evaluate the likelihood/risk of it happening if you buy the place.

I would suggest it's relatively unlikely but you may have a more pessimistic attitude. Furthermore, the cost of rectification in the event the issue is discovered, or the windows/roof need replacing will be more expensive than if the place wasn't listed, but I assume you're aware of that already.

In summary, you've uncovered something which *could* be a problem - it's up to you to decide if you want to be the owner if or when it *is* a problem.

Wablodablo

ReadingTim wrote: »

.

In summary, you've uncovered something which *could* be a problem - it's up to you to decide if you want to be the owner if or when it *is* a problem.

I don't want to be the owner of a potential problem. I will require it cleared up before we become the owner, otherwise prepared to walk away from sale

Any advice on what the indemnity insurance covers you for and pays out? Anyone had to use there indemnity policy¿

Mutton_Geoff

Wablodablo wrote: »

Any advice on what the indemnity insurance covers you for and pays out? Anyone had to use there indemnity policy¿

I bought a grade II listed house. It was listed in the 1970s for 17th century timbers on a small part of the external part of the house. The rest of the building is essentially mid 1950s construction (Crittall windows etc).

When a house is listed, everything fixed to it is listed as well. I have a mix of cast iron and plastic gutters that are in poor condition. The historic buildings officer said I can only replace like with like so I am having to do this.

When I bought the house, an internal wall was removed with building regs approval but not historic buildings approval. At the request of my solicitor, the vendors paid for an indeminity policy but the policy is of the “let sleeping dogs lie” type in that it becomes invalid if I notify the council of the issue. Since I had a measured survey then architectural drawings for remodelling in other parts of the house then submitted for planning/historic approval, I thus rendered the policy invalid although the council don’t seem to have noticed the previous changes and have approved my own updates.

As someone else says, you fall to the whim of the listed/historic people at the council. During my application, they wanted a historic buildings report. That was another £2,600. They then wanted detailed window section drawings, that was another £2,000.

It’s no wonder people aren’t open with the council when repairing or updating listed buildings. I wouldn’t buy one again. It sounds attractive but the extra layer of beaurocracy is expensive and time consuming.

catshark88

We walked away from a potentially gorgeous house in a cathedral city because the (incredibly arrogant) owner had made a load of changes without permission.

We were prepared for the costs of buying and maintaining the place, but not to take on a potentially open bill for sorting out what he had done to the place.

Forumexpert

No council is going to pursue you for changes made by the previous owner. They don't have the resources for this and it would only be detrimental to the conservation of the historic housing stock. The only time it could come back to bite you is if you submit a plan directly associated with the non-approved feature eg you want to make a modification to your cement slate roof in which case they may insist that the slates are returned to the original material as a condition for the approval of the modification.

There is a whole industry surrounding listed property ownership, driven by over-cautiousness and ultimately consuming resources from home-owners and councils which should be spent on actual conservation rather than paper-pushing and dawdling.

There are in excess of half a million listed buildings in the UK - simply too many to administer and probably too many to protect. Authorities need to be more selective in order to be effective at conserving our history.