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Paying in Old Pound Coins
Comments
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You seem to be missing the points i am making. Legal tender is not relevant to a discussion on whether or not you should donate certain coins to charity.
I don't think it is me who is missing the point! Stop reading sentences in isolation and you may gain a better understanding of what has been written.A bank does not have to accept any coin/note whether it is legal tender or not. Accepting payment even in legal tender notes could be considered a good will gesture. Some banks (such as Monzo) only accept payments in electronic form.
So you clearly didn't read the bit where I wrote, "I never said that banks have to accept them because they are legal tender. I said that they don't have to accept them (or any other coins). The requirement on the banks to accept them stems from their own terms and conditions, which are related to the notes and coinage currently in circulation. Old pound coins are not currently in circulation and their acceptance of them, therefore, is an act of good will." Or perhaps you did read it (as you chose to quote it), but decided to ignore it because it didn't fit with your narrative that I am wrong.A charity does not have to accept legal tender and can choose to accept donations only in apples if they wanted.
I never said that they did! You really are very good at straw man arguments!A coin being legal tender or not means nothing in a discussion of whether not you should donate it to charity.
You've missed the point about where and why I commented on legal tender.Also a value of a coin is not determined by whether or not it is legal tender. The value is based on what value it is accepted as. So if a bank will give you £1 for the coin then it's difficult to argue it's worth less than a £1.
No, the value of a coin is based on whether or not it is in circulation and the face value it bears. If a bank chooses to give you one pound for the coin that doesn't mean the coin is worth one pound. Some people trade certain issues of coins and notes at much higher than their face value because they are collectors. If someone paid £200 for a "Kew Gardens" 50p coin (genuine event) that doesn't make that 50p coin worth £200. Should the collector decide to spend that coin they wouldn't be able to exchange it for goods over 50p in value, nor deposit it into a bank account at a value over 50p, nor settle a debt above the value of 50p with it. Having exchanged £200 for it themselves does not make it worth £200. It is still worth 50p as it is a 50p coin currently in circulation. Once withdrawn from circulation it wil cease to be worth 50p and could potentially be worth £200 if someone else was willing to spend that much on it, or it could be worth nothing at all.If i had a roman coin that collectors would give me £500 for it on average would you declare it not worth anything as it's not legal tender?.
See the above point.Also just because you don't understand an argument doesn't make it a "straw man argument".
Ah, the arrogance again! I understand your argument, but it is a straw man because you are arguing that I have said things that I haven't; you are intentionally misrepresenting me to try and advance your own argument.. Perhaps you need a definition of what a straw man argument is, so here you go:straw man
noun
an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.0 -
That's a good straw man argument you have there; agrinnall never said they have a "face value" of £1 he said they are worth £1 because that's what you can sell them for.
Oh dear. You just keep going, don't you!
It is not a straw man argument. Please see the definition I have provided for you. You are conflating points now. I did not say that you could not exchange old pound coins for one pound, but rather that they are not intrinsically worth one pound. A bank will give you one pound for them, but they are not worth one pound as they are not coinage in circulation.So if you had 100 old £1 coins and i offered to buy them of you for £10 would you accept it? If not how much would you expect to get for them considering you say they aren't worth £1 each.
What a very silly question. For the umpteenth time, I have never said that banks won't currently exchange them for one pound, but rather that they can choose not to at any time without a revision of their terms and conditions.
Would I sell these theoretical 100 old pound coins to you for £10? No, I wouldn't, but neither would I sell them to you for £100. There is no reason for me to do so.0 -
Well technically i don't need to read up on what legal tender means i need to read up on what coins are considering legal tender
. That's what i get for not checking before i posted it must only be banknotes that are not legal tender in scotland!.
Well, technically, you do, because what you wrote was technically inaccurate.
If you are going to be a pedant it also helps if you get your facts right.0 -
ValiantSon wrote: »So you clearly didn't read the bit where I wrote, "I never said that banks have to accept them because they are legal tender. I said that they don't have to accept them (or any other coins). The requirement on the banks to accept them stems from their own terms and conditions, which are related to the notes and coinage currently in circulation. Old pound coins are not currently in circulation and their acceptance of them, therefore, is an act of good will." Or perhaps you did read it (as you chose to quote it), but decided to ignore it because it didn't fit with your narrative that I am wrong.
Ok then show me the terms and conditions of a bank where it "requires" them to accept coins in circulation.
They do not have any terms and conditions that require them to accept any form of money so if using your logic they accept old £1 coins out of "good will" then they accept all currency as a an act of good will.
Just because you repeat yourself doesn't mean it will make your argument correct.ValiantSon wrote: »Oh dear. You just keep going, don't you!
It is not a straw man argument. Please see the definition I have provided for you.
As per your supplied definition of a Straw Man argument you were intentionally misrepresenting agrinnall by making an argument against them using the term "face value" when in reality they said they were "worth" £1.ValiantSon wrote: »No, the value of a coin is based on whether or not it is in circulation and the face value it bears. If a bank chooses to give you one pound for the coin that doesn't mean the coin is worth one pound. Some people trade certain issues of coins and notes at much higher than their face value because they are collectors. If someone paid £200 for a "Kew Gardens" 50p coin (genuine event) that doesn't make that 50p coin worth £200. Should the collector decide to spend that coin they wouldn't be able to exchange it for goods over 50p in value, nor deposit it into a bank account at a value over 50p, nor settle a debt above the value of 50p with it. Having exchanged £200 for it themselves does not make it worth £200. It is still worth 50p as it is a 50p coin currently in circulation. Once withdrawn from circulation it wil cease to be worth 50p and could potentially be worth £200 if someone else was willing to spend that much on it, or it could be worth nothing at all.ValiantSon wrote: »You are conflating points now. I did not say that you could not exchange old pound coins for one pound, but rather that they are not intrinsically worth one pound. A bank will give you one pound for them, but they are not worth one pound as they are not coinage in circulation.
The value of anything is only what someone will pay for it. If according to you a £1 coin in circulation is intrinsically worth £1 and a bank will exchange an old coin for a new £1 coin then i say the old coin is still worth £1.
Although i disagree that a kew gardens coin cannot be used to settle debts over 50p or be exchanged for goods over 50p. If the person who the debt is owed to or is selling goods knows it can be sold for £200 i'm they would happily accept it for a transaction worth more than 50p.
If i had a boat and it was worth lets say £2000. Just because i can't deposit it into a bank for £2000 doesn't mean it isn't worth that amount.
I don't think we will ever agree how to define what something is "worth".ValiantSon wrote: »What a very silly question. For the umpteenth time, I have never said that banks won't currently exchange them for one pound, but rather that they can choose not to at any time without a revision of their terms and conditions.
Would I sell these theoretical 100 old pound coins to you for £10? No, I wouldn't, but neither would I sell them to you for £100. There is no reason for me to do so.
You don't seem to be able to cope with made up scenarios to express a point. If you had 100 old £1 coins and you wanted to change them for currency currently in circulation i bet you wouldn't accept less than £100 for them even though you keep saying they aren't worth that.ValiantSon wrote: »Well, technically, you do, because what you wrote was technically inaccurate.
If you are going to be a pedant it also helps if you get your facts right.
I don't have a problem admitting when i'm wrong but that's something you seem unable to do!.
But i look forward to seeing those banks terms and conditions requiring them to accept currency in circulation for day to day transactions0 -
Whatever. I haven't been shown to be wrong. I'm not continuing this because life is too short.0
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ValiantSon wrote: »Whatever. I haven't been shown to be wrong. I'm not continuing this because life is too short.
I know the majority of the discussion is open to interpretation and opinion but to make it clear i am saying you are wrong about the banks terms and conditions requiring them to accept currency in circulation.
I can never understand people who can't accept when they are wrong. If you say something wrong once and accept it then you may look stupid once. If you don't accept when you are wrong you will continue to make the same error and look stupid again and again!.0
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