Neighbours seeking planning for extension with new party wall

Nadeshkarine

Hello again - second post in as many weeks but unrelated to my previous issue (I guess housing issues are like busses? :rotfl:)
Writing this on behalf of a family member who lives in a Victorian terrace.
Their neighbours have applied for planning permission to do a kitchen extension into their side return, which includes building a new party wall on/across the boundary. I.e. It will eat into their garden by a couple of inches an affect a drain which they have up against the boundary.

They're pensioners and I want to make sure they know their rights and understand the implications.
The first they heard about this was when they received letters from third parties about the application. They don't really want to lose inches of their garden (there's plants up against the boundary fence now) or their drains affected. They have zero intention of extending into their side return so wouldn't realise any benefit of leveraging this wall.

My question is would the planning permission be granted without them signing an agreement for them to build on their land? If they get the planning permission (they are going to object but I guess it could still be approved) does that allow them to encroach on their garden, can they force consent in this manner?
Without their consent I presume the wall can only be up to their boundary and all foundations on their own side?
Trying to understand how they've got as far into an application without an agreement from my relative. Until I looked at the plans my relative didn't realise it meant losing part of their flower bed so they haven't yet objected (nor signed anything however) and deadline is in the next 10 days.

Thanks for any advice

davidmcn

Nadeshkarine wrote: »

If they get the planning permission does that allow them to encroach on their garden, can they force consent in this manner?

No, it just means that as a matter of planning the development is approved. Doesn't affect land ownership or any other rights between the neighbours.

moneyistooshorttomention

The neighbours have got the cheek of the devil to just assume they can casually grab for a bit of someone else's garden (even if it isnt very much) and muck around with their drains.

Time those neighbours had a reality check:cool:

I know G_M would advocate "coffee and cakes" approach:rotfl:. Personally I'd go round there and say words to effect of "I guess you didn't realise your application would mean taking a couple of inches of my garden and affecting my drains. Never mind - we all make mistakes sometimes and so I don't suppose you realised it would affect me the way things stand at present and so isnt possible and I can't agree to it:)".

I bet they darn well did realise and it's a try-on by them and there will be a guilty look on their face at that point - but the message would have been got over of "No way Hosea" to them and I doubt those proposed intrusions would go any further.

ProDave

The neighbour can built UP to the boundary, NOT beyond it.

In order to build UP to the boundary, he may need a party wall agreement to allow him to have the footings go partly under your land, and allow eaves or gutters to overhang.

Without that agreement, all parts of the extension, including footings and overhangs must not trespass on your land, so there would have to be a step back in the line of the extension to ensure that happened.

G_M

It's important they (you) understand the respective rights and obligations of each side. Start by reading up on the Act:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/party-wall-etc-act-1996-guidance

It's also important to understand that the Act is not mandatory, and that starting/completing works witthout a Party Wall Agreement is not an offence.

Where a neighbour starts work (or appears to be about to start work) without a PW Agreement, the only solution (aside from tea & cake to reach a friendly compromise) is to apply for a court injuncttion forcing the neighbour to stop work until a PW Agreement is in place.

If you don't seek a court injunction, the neighbour does nothing wrong in continuing work (so far as the Act is concerned - the law of trespass is separate).

And the Act is of no help at all once work is complete.

lincroft1710

I don't know if it still happens but there used to be a firm of surveyors who specialised in PWAs, who would search out planning applications and send letters to neighbours volunteering their services.

G_M

lincroft1710 wrote: »

I don't know if it still happens but there used to be a firm of surveyors who specialised in PWAs, who would search out planning applications and send letters to neighbours volunteering their services.

Yes, some firms still do this - just like the vultures who read obituries and write to relatives offering house clearance, and the no-wwin-no-fee solicitors who encourage car insurance claimants to claim for personal injury.

Personally I'd never respond to any of these speculative marketing approaches.

You want a Party Wall surveyor? Do some research and find a recomended local surveyor yourself........

Nadeshkarine

moneyistooshorttomention wrote: »

The neighbours have got the cheek of the devil to just assume they can casually grab for a bit of someone else's garden (even if it isnt very much) and muck around with their drains.

Yes I had some choice words but given the public forum tried to keep my words neutral and kept things non personal...

ProDave wrote: »

The neighbour can built UP to the boundary, NOT beyond it.

In order to build UP to the boundary, he may need a party wall agreement to allow him to have the footings go partly under your land, and allow eaves or gutters to overhang.

Without that agreement, all parts of the extension, including footings and overhangs must not trespass on your land, so there would have to be a step back in the line of the extension to ensure that happened.

Great, this is exactly what I was hoping to confirm. They don't want to stop them extending entirely (not that they could) but don't see why they should sacrifice their space for someone else's kitchen.

lincroft1710 wrote: »

I don't know if it still happens but there used to be a firm of surveyors who specialised in PWAs, who would search out planning applications and send letters to neighbours volunteering their services.

Yup this is in fact how they found out about the plans!

Thanks for all of this. To be clear, my relatives don't want to be petty and equally are not fools, however it is clear that the neighbours have money and we're really hoping this doesn't turn into a legal battle. I have read on these forums and in papers how bad these things can get...

The previous neighbours were like family and it's just disappointing that the new ones had barely unpacked when they've lodged this request and not even come to say hi...

Once they got that vulture surveyor letter they went round to discuss and that's when they were given the plans in a 2 minute chat*, where it wasn't made explicit that the wall was over the boundary. My relative thought it was a wall against the boundary (and still concerned enough about those flowers & drains), till I pointed it out that the small dotted line in the wall was their current fence!

They are getting their own independent surveyor to look at them, I was just concerned that neighbours could somehow use permitted development/planning permission to allow them to build on the boundary/encroach.

The gardens here are classic postage stamp size that you get in inner city terraces so I can't imagine sacrificing some for more internal space, but hey-ho we all have different preferences.

Moreover I just don't understand applying for planning permission to build on something you don't own! Hopefully they don't get petty when asked to scale back to stay on their side and then extension could go ahead and hopefully new neighbours can become new friends. But I fear that in general those days are gone

Davesnave

Are you sure that what appears to be the wall isn't the footings of the wall? The footings would have to encroach if the wall is built to the boundary. Even if the wall were set back a little, it's possible that there will be some disruption on your relatives' side. Building is messy, scaffolding is usually required, and services aren't always where people think they are either!

With terraced properties, it's often better if the boundary is built up to, as it's an advantage with later development if the two extensions aren't left with a stupid inacessible gap between them to fill with leaves and rubbish, to say nothing of having to lay bricks overhand. In that sense the neighbours are spot-on. Although your family member doesn't think what they're saying is relevant, they are not necessarily being rude.

Personally I don't see a problem with someone buying a house and starting an extension immediately.They don't own the property any more if they wait 6 months, but of course they should liaise with neighbours well before starting.

Finally, anyone can apply for PP on any piece of land, owned or not. Planning consent is nothing to do with land ownership, but rest assured that these folk wont be able to build over the boundary if that is really what they had in mind. Frankly, it wouldn't be in their interests to do that.

teddysmum

Davesnave wrote: »

Are you sure that what appears to be the wall isn't the footings of the wall? The footings would have to encroach if the wall is built to the boundary. Even if the wall were set back a little, it's possible that there will be some disruption on your relatives' side. Building is messy, scaffolding is usually required, and services aren't always where people think they are either!

With terraced properties, it's often better if the boundary is built up to, as it's an advantage with later development if the two extensions aren't left with a stupid inacessible gap between them to fill with leaves and rubbish, to say nothing of having to lay bricks overhand. In that sense the neighbours are spot-on. Although your family member doesn't think what they're saying is relevant, they are not necessarily being rude.

Originally our next neighbour, had a low wooden fence between our gardens, but it proved useless as wooden posts and panels could not withstand winds, so a couple of years on, he told us we would be pleased to know that he was having a new fence, this time five feet high but of much better quality.

This was no problem, until one morning I looked outside and saw a man who had removed the old fence, digging holes in our garden. I went out to explain that we had not given permission, so he asked me to contact the owner ,who was staying at a partner's home.

Brian came over and we had a chat with the fence maker. It turned out that Brian hadn't realised that the man would need to enter our side and the man, knowing that I had been told about the fence, assumed I knew about the need to encroach.

It turned out that he needed to insert concrete from both sides in order to mount the uprights, but he assured me that he had carefully removed turf and that it would regrow as though there had been o disturbance, knowing this as he also did landscape gardening.

A year on and you can't tell and we have a stronger, better looking boundary fence.

I agree about narrow gaps between buildings, as our garage and the other neighbours' have a gap of about 80cm. When the neighbour noticed a wild shrub growing from their side, she asked if my husband could squeeze down and cut the shrub as she and her son wouldn't feel comfortable there, but he, too, refused as he is no longer the slim person I married, so the shrub had to have some weedkiller dropped on it from the garage roof.

I could probably fit, but would have been afraid of getting stuck, especially as the other garage has an extension over it, which would emphasise the narrowness.

Doozergirl

Hang on. I’ve stopped reading here. Just because someone tells you something on a forum, it doesn’t mean it’s true. Saying ‘that’s what I wanted to hear’ does not make it fact, nor is an uninformed emotional response the right one.

Knowledge on this board of the Party Wall Act is weak. I am certainly no expert but I do at least have some direct experience of it.

A new party wall is allowed. They can ‘encroach’, they are not being cheeky if it is specifically a party wall, built astride the boundary.

Planning Permission has nothing to do with the Party Wall Act. If planning permission is granted, that is when the neighbours will serve notice under the Party Wall Act, at which point your parents can accept the work, employ the surveyor serving notice to work for both parties, or employ their own Party Wall Surveyor. There is no point in them addressing the party wall issue before obtaining permission because it costs money and there is no guarantee of planning permission being granted.

I would say that the neighbours (or their agents) are actually rather clued up if they understand that building a new party wall is, in the long run, better for both parties.

People make such pigs ears building extensions slightly away from boundaries that it causes problems when the other neighbour wants to extend. You end up with unsightly extensions and potential damp traps between walls which are too close together. I appreciate that your parents don’t want to extend, but in the long term, it is the most sensible option in a terrace. After all, that is how the houses are built in the first place.

They can speak to a party wall surveyor. Not an internet forum about house buying, which has absolutely nothing to do with the Party Wall Act.

A new party wall would encroach no more than the average fence post.